[DeLuce]

Hi everyone,
Are the hot water systems that the likes of Grippa and Purefreedom use worth the dosh?
Are they based on the Webasto heaters that are diesel fed?
I currently use an immersion heater set-up,which I like and is reliable, but I would like to up the heat at times and wondered whether to buy and fit a Webasto 5kw diesel water heater which you can buy refurbished for around the £250-400 mark.
Those that run these diesel set-ups,  what do you think? Any disadvantages? What do you like about them?
Thanks for any feedback!
Nic.

[DeLuce]

Oh, I also don't mind playing about with the spanners, unless it's totally pointless 

[p1w1]

I think it depends on how hot you actually want at the brush head. IMO i dont think a 5kw heater is strong enough to give really hot water at the brush head especially in winter when going through 100m of hose i would tend to be looking at the 9kw ones even for a single user.

[DeLuce]

Thanks P1w1, Mmmm, didn't think of that 👍

[p1w1]

Just to add i haven't actually used hot water so not an expert, just my thoughts. Spruce is the man to ask i think, as i believe he has looked into all this before and tested it, and of course the people who actually use these system.
If i was to get one then i wouldn't buy it from a wfp supplier. I would buy the webasto heater itself and install it, you would probably do it for at least half the price these companies charge as i believe they just use the same type heater.

[Spruce]

Just to add i haven't actually used hot water so not an expert, just my thoughts. Spruce is the man to ask i think, as i believe he has looked into all this before and tested it, and of course the people who actually use these system.
If i was to get one then i wouldn't buy it from a wfp supplier. I would buy the webasto heater itself and install it, you would probably do it for at least half the price these companies charge as i believe they just use the same type heater.

I found on a test bench that the Thermo Top C only raised the water from 9 degrees to 35 degrees at the brush head. The initial flow was 1.5lpm but the water flow increased with heat. I dear say that if I reduced the flow back to 1.5lpm I may have got a little more heat. I set the thermostatic temperature control valve to 40 anyway.

I used minibore hose and found that the particular hose I use happily with cold became very stretchy.

According to physics I should only have used 2.65kw to raise the water temperature through 26 degrees at 1.5lpm. But the heater had nothing else to give. Although some heat would have been lost by the normal process of a hot item in a cold place, radiation, I believe that the majority of remaining heat lost was out of the exhaust as that gets very hot.

One needs to be very careful if going down buying a second hand Thermo Top C . They are usually auxillary heaters from various cars from the breakers yards.
Most are vehicle specific. So the BMW one I originally purchased wouldn't work as it needs to get instructions from BMW's canbus system.  A new pcb for universal application cost more that the heater.

I believe the the units fitted to Rover 75 models work, as do the ones fitted to PSA models, but I'm not 100% sure on the latter one. (There is a post on YouTube where some guys have a Thermo Top c from a Peugeot 807 they got to work.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcfPMQw3toU

If you find one thats been refurbished from a boat then they will be ok.

If you are thinking about doing a diy one you must understand how the heating program cycle works. A heater that reaches temperature takes 180 seconds to go through its shutdown cycle and then uses a fair bit of current to get going again when starting up.

The other issue with the Thermo Top is that if you start cleaning windows a few moments after switching the heater on , you will always seem to have cool water. The heater really needs to get up to speed before you start drawing heat from it. This is why its recommended that you start the heater whilst on the way to your first customer.

The 8lpm gas heaters that were popular with some cleaners delivered 16kw and they gave instant heat. Diesel heaters don't deliver anywhere near that amount. A Thermo Top C is 5.2kw and the ST90 is 9.1 kw.

Making up your own heater may seem pretty easy but it is more complex than it looks. Where do you get the diesel from? Just putting a 'standpipe' into the diesel tank is a major operation.

We don't do much mileage and I use a tank of fuel every 4 or 5 weeks. A diesel heater drawing fuel would probably take another tank full a month, and possibly a bit more.

[DeLuce]

Thanks Spruce for such a comprehensive answer. Interesting. 
I was thinking of this diesel water heater route instead of using the electricity from home each night to heat my water up.  Getting a more consistent and higher temperature when required.
Oh well, might stick with the immersion 
Thanks.

[Spruce]

Thanks Spruce for such a comprehensive answer. Interesting. 
I was thinking of this diesel water heater route instead of using the electricity from home each night to heat my water up.  Getting a more consistent and higher temperature when required.
Oh well, might stick with the immersion 
Thanks.

A diesel heater heats the water in an internal circuit comprising of the heater, a water to water plate heat exchanger and a header tank.  The heat to your brush gets taken from the internal circuit by heat transfer at the heat exchanger. They add an adjustable thermostatic control valve to regulate the temperature of the water going to your brush head.

If you stop to talk or move onto the next job the heater will still continue to heat the water in its internal water circuit. As it reaches the top end of its heating cycle, it goes into half heat mode until it reaches full temperature. The heater then goes into shutdown mode which takes 3 minutes to complete. During this process and for as long as the heater is powered up the internal water pump continues to circulate the water through the internal water circuit. If you start your next house during the heater shut down, the heater will continue its shutdown and when finished will restart the heater. This takes at least another 3 minutes to get going . By that time you have zapped all the hot water in the internal circuit and it will battle to get that water back up to temperature whilst your are washing windows. So your water will be luke warm for quite some time.

Starting a Webasto or any other heater will draw around 20 amps of current in pulses to get the diesel heater fired up, much like glow plugs on an old diesel van.

Ionics get around this stop start issue by using a bypass valve and continiously running the water pump supplying your brush.  When you turn your water flow off to your brush the pressure in the system rises and blows off a pressure relief valve at 65psi which directs that hot water back into your van's tank. This stops the system's stop restart cycle.
Unfortunately the downside is that you can't regulate the temperature of water to your brush head as they can't add a thermostatic temperature control valve to the heat exchanger like the other suppliers do.

At those temperatures you start to need to consider hoses that will better tollerate that extra heat and pressure

You then have to consider how you would power that heater. Do you have a dedicated diesel heater battery and a separate wfp battery or can you use a single battery that will support both applications. (This isn't as bigger problem as it was as some leisure batteries are now dual purpose (starter and leisure combination) with new calcium technology so will tollerate higher draw currents.)

Webasto tell us that the heat draws  0.5kgs of diesel an hour under full load. An Australian manual says its 0.59 liters an hour. When I did this test my focus was on the heating aspect of the heater, but it was only afterwards that I worked out that my heater used more fuel than that.

For any one else thinking about this, if you buy from a scrap yard, you need to make sure you have the circulation pump with the heater as these are expensive. Rover for example locate that pump elsewhere on the car. All scrap yards tell you the heater has been tested and working 100%. This isn't always true as they all lie.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f67OzZZJzic

So buy at your own risk.

You will also need a wiring harness and a starter/timer switch. You will also need a fuel pump and its wiring harness as well as the correct size diesel supply hose.

Here's a better option
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Webasto-Thermo-Top-boat-motorhome-diesel-water-heater-warranty/252144112661?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D49130%26meid%3Df88b4984a1ef42a1989fbce136265f26%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D5%26rkt%3D6%26mehot%3Dlo%26sd%3D252147925455&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

.

[dazmond]

ive never used a diesel heater but ive had various gas heaters.

its up to you.do you do a lot of add ons and dirty first cleans?if not and most of your work is maintenance window cleaning on a 4 weekly/8 weekly basis then your probably wasting your money.

IME hot water didnt speed me up at all over the course of a normal working day whether it was regular work or add on work.the water needs to be really hot to have any cleaning benefit and even then its marginal.its costly for very little benefit.

i was spending around £600 a year on gas alone as well as trips to the local boating yard to swap bottles etc.

if you dont mind spending the money and can put up with the extra faff then go for it.to me its just another thing to go wrong.i prefer to keep things simple.

i use cold water all year round now.chemicals for very dirty first cleans and add on jobs and if the weather is that cold its freezing on the glass(-2 or lower)then its time to go home IMO.

i do put an oil filled radiator in the back of my van to stop everything freezing on very cold winter nights but thats it these days.

[nathankaye]

Why bother going to the extra faff. I cant be bothered to check the temp at brush end but the max the water temp has been in my tank is 75 degrees C. through the use of an immersion heater. The reason incant be bothered to check tempnat brush end because to the touch its very hot. As in you cant leave your hand under it.
So how hot are you wanting it??   My hot will easily shift green algae and the likes of very dirty fascias or conny roofs.

How hot is yours??  Is your tank insulated?? Turn the thermostat to ita highest on heater and leave it powered on for long if need be. Change gour electric tarrif for the cheaper night price. For the first several months I thought I had the peak/off peak tariff but I hadnt.   I needed a new electric box/reader in house and the electric bloke tried talking my wife out of it saying its more expensive. Must adnit I was mad at this and phoned up to register a complaint.  Because I checked before doing so and the truth was I would end up paying a penny cheaper during the day and the night tariff was just less than half price I was paying!!
Off peak for me is 12 - 7.30 but I obviously leave it on longer than this.

[Dry Clean]

I would say preventing burning your house down would be as good enough reason as any to faff about, to get anywhere near
the temps Nathan is getting your going to need a 3kw emersion which will need an upgrade in your home  electrics, plus running a 3kw heater for 8 to 10 hours every night isn't going to be cheap.

[nathankaye]

I would say preventing burning your house down would be as good enough reason as any to faff about, to get anywhere near
the temps Nathan is getting your going to need a 3kw emersion which will need an upgrade in your home  electrics, plus running a 3kw heater for 8 to 10 hours every night isn't going to be cheap.

And here we go again 😴😴😴😴

My house still stands, not burnt or fried and no electrics have been changed. Using a 2kw or less requires no changeing of your electric set up.

But you have a greater chance of blowing your van up with gas if using gas and the other route seems more faff than its worth.

Oh i also think dry clean is old enough to remember the days when households had only immersion heaters to heat up the water in the family home and I dont recall hearing/being told tails how houses would burn during the night

[nathankaye]

Just a quick boring vid showing todays start temp.
Ps....no houses were burnt down in the production of this video 😂😂

https://youtu.be/J2XqZ3l1PUE

[Dry Clean]

I would say preventing burning your house down would be as good enough reason as any to faff about, to get anywhere near
the temps Nathan is getting your going to need a 3kw emersion which will need an upgrade in your home  electrics, plus running a 3kw heater for 8 to 10 hours every night isn't going to be cheap.

And here we go again 😴😴😴😴

My house still stands, not burnt or fried and no electrics have been changed. Using a 2kw or less requires no changeing of your electric set up.

But you have a greater chance of blowing your van up with gas if using gas and the other route seems more faff than its worth.

Oh i also think dry clean is old enough to remember the days when households had only immersion heaters to heat up the water in the family home and I dont recall hearing/being told tails how houses would burn during the night

Nathan its guys like you who get people injured, household immersion heaters are on higher rated wiring than your 13amp
sockets as are electric showers and so on, even a 2kw heater running non stop for hours on end would be pushing it on a 13amp socket.
The worse part is even with a bit of bubble wrap wrapped around your tank a 2kw isn't going to go anywhere near 70degrees
in the time available and your harping on about doing it with a 1kw.

[nathankaye]

Look i ordered a 1kw 27inch immersion kit. Ive also shown the receipt on here before.
Also 2kw is also ok on the household electrics just be careful whatbelse your running from the same wire/double socket. But then thats common sense.

Also i dont very much care for the science i just simply know the results im getting. You dont think i am and i must be wasting alot of my time trying to fabricate false videos to prove what exactly??

If you notice im not saying how long im leaving it running anymore, cause quite frankly you dont belief me. So my ownly advice to ones using it, is what i said above. Get a good tariff and run it for whatever time to wish to get the temps you want.

If im full of poop then it aint cost as much as a diesil or gas heater and you can go down that line. But in the meantime ive been paid hundreads for promoting immersion heaters n making suckers buy them 😂😂😂😂😂  thats if u believe dry clean

[Dry Clean]

Look i ordered a 1kw 27inch immersion kit. Ive also shown the receipt on here before.
Also 2kw is also ok on the household electrics just be careful whatbelse your running from the same wire/double socket. But then thats common sense.

Also i dont very much care for the science i just simply know the results im getting. You dont think i am and i must be wasting alot of my time trying to fabricate false videos to prove what exactly??

If you notice im not saying how long im leaving it running anymore, cause quite frankly you dont belief me. So my ownly advice to ones using it, is what i said above. Get a good tariff and run it for whatever time to wish to get the temps you want.

If im full of poop then it aint cost as much as a diesil or gas heater and you can go down that line. But in the meantime ive been paid hundreads for promoting immersion heaters n making suckers buy them 😂😂😂😂😂  thats if u believe dry clean

Nathan I honestly couldn't care less what you spend your money on and if this wasn't a safety issue I would just let you get on with it.
If your getting the results your claiming to be getting then it doesn't matter what your receipt tells you, your running a 3kw
heater, that puts you your family and anybody who buys this heater on your recommendation at risk.
The science says its impossible for you to be getting the results your getting with the heater your using therefore you don't need to be Sherlock Holmes to work out your either reading the results wrong or your heater is stronger than you believe it to be,
Iv no reason to believe your lying.

[Dry Clean]

Running a 2kw on a 13amp socket would be just within the allowance but if running it for 10 to 12hours every night you would be
safer getting the electrics upgraded.
A 2kw heater will up the temp of 500ltrs by 50degrees in 14.5 hours with absolutely no heat escaping from the water , there's no possible way of improving on this, science fact.

[KS Cleaning]

Running a 2kw on a 13amp socket would be just within the allowance but if running it for 10 to 12hours every night you would be
safer getting the electrics upgraded.
A 2kw heater will up the temp of 500ltrs by 50degrees in 14.5 hours with absolutely no heat escaping from the water , there's no possible way of improving on this, science fact.

I will put my immersion on tonight ( if I remember ) I will post my results tomorrow, both the starting temp at night and the temp in the morning and how long the immersion has been plugged in. I have a 3kw immersion and had an electrician upgrade my electrics in the garage. I very much doubt the results will be able to match the heat of Nathans water.

[NWH]

Complete rubbish a fuel tank worth of diesel to run a top C over a month lol,I use about £25 worth of diesel in a separate tank next to the heater every 4 weeks or so. You preheat as said on the way to the first job to get it up to temp and by doing this with the van running it uses no static battery power then,be careful on frosty mornings though mine was at 70degrees pre heated at the first job this morning dropping to around the 45-50 mark it was smoking off the glass no hiding your using hot water,hot water is the only way to WFP imo hot means cleaner Windows.

[KS Cleaning]

Complete rubbish a fuel tank worth of diesel to run a top C over a month lol,I use about £25 worth of diesel in a separate tank next to the heater every 4 weeks or so. You preheat as said on the way to the first job to get it up to temp and by doing this with the van running it uses no static battery power then,be careful on frosty mornings though mine was at 70degrees pre heated at the first job this morning dropping to around the 45-50 mark it was smoking off the glass no hiding your using hot water,hot water is the only way to WFP imo hot means cleaner Windows.

Complete rubbish, you can't get cleaner than clean. Hot water may make the job a little easier but the end result will be the same.....clean windows.