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H2GoKent

  • Posts: 532
Leasing a van? Or buying?
« on: October 24, 2017, 09:37:16 pm »
Is there a tax advantage to leasing?
I know I get to write off some of the value of my van each year against my tax bill, but what if I leased would the same apply to the payments?
Anyone on here do it?
A manager is generally someone who has been promoted to the position by someone else who didn't see them as a threat.
Hence all people are promoted to the level of their incompetence

Plankton

  • Posts: 2441
Re: Leasing a van? Or buying?
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2017, 10:23:59 pm »
Simply put, yes there's an advantage but it's not everyone's cup of tea.

Spruce

  • Posts: 8466
Re: Leasing a van? Or buying?
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2017, 10:54:33 pm »
Is there a tax advantage to leasing?
I know I get to write off some of the value of my van each year against my tax bill, but what if I leased would the same apply to the payments?
Anyone on here do it?

 Depends on the type of lease you want to take out.

Large businesses will view lease vehicles and equipment in a different light to sole traders. So the advantages they see in leasing can be vastly different to what you see. To them, leasing is all about having the equipment to do the job without them being shown as an asset or liability on their books. The benefit of this is that it portrays the image of the company in a better financial light to an investor. This is particularily true if the company is listed on the stock exchange. To them, leasing is also all about using money that would normally be used to buy an asset to be used it other places, such as moving the business forward by growing it.

Whats the benefit to you tax wise as a sole trader. Simply; not very much.

But is can be a help as leasing has a lower initial outlay when acquiring a vehicle. A lease primary is funding a depreciating product, the finances houses charges for the privilege of the lease (interest charges)  and a residual value at the end of the lease. They also set the residual at a level that they can also sell the used van they take back at a profit.
 
Contract hire is a lease where the finance house takes on the risk of the van and it future value at the end of the contract.  You claim the payments against tax as an expense. Its known as an "off balance sheet" item on your books. You must insure it including GAP insurance, maintain it if you have a non maintenance contract and be responsible for the van's care. If you damage it over and above the "fair wear and tear" clause, or do more than the agreed mileage, you will be charged extra for that. So if you want to drill holes in your van to fit a water tank, then this maybe an additional charge levied against you on return of the vehicle at the end of the contract.
Usual intial payment is 3 payments up front followed by monthly payments for the duration of your lease. So 3/35 would be a typical lease agreement pattern + VAT.

At Citroen we also had Finance Lease which made you responsible for the final payment or residual value of the van. But not all companies could have a van on lower monthly rentals with a balloon payment at the end. If you were a builder then you have to pay the van off in full. What ever you got for the van at the end of the lease was the lessors, usually used for the initial payment on the next van.
This type of lease was known as an "on balance sheet" item. You claim the full payment as an expense along with any losses at the end of the contact as well. If you van is worth more than the final payment, then the balance is put toward the next contract on the next van.
 

You might give Grippa Tank a ring and see if they can suggest anything.
https://www.grippatank.co.uk/help/systemvehiclepackagefinance/

People used to often think that they could have a lease where an HP deal would be rejected due to a poor credit history and CCJ's. Unfortunately the finances houses are stricter with lease than they are on HP. They initially have more to loose as the initial payment is lower.

If you go down the leasing route you have to be aware of all the implications. Beware of PCP with a large balloon payment at the end. It keeps your monthly payment affordable but can create financial issues for you later.

Please make sure of the ownership details. Some contracts are similar to HP and you can own the van when the lease is up, others you can't.

If you don't have a lease where you are responsible for the final payment, (usually Contract Hire) then you need to understand exactly what that finance house terms as fair wear and tear. Each finance house has a different interpretation and they usually supply of booklet if you request it.

Leasing doesn't always benefit the customer. Its primary objective was to fix you into a system on the pretense that you can easily have a new van every 3 or 4 years. But once you get locked into the system its harder to find your way out because of small initial deposits and large balloon payments. So the main beneficaries are the motor manufacturers.

If you need to get out of a contract before it finishes then you need to understand what the implications are. It can end up costing your dearly and even ruin your credit history.

If your contract is mileage based, then you need to make sure you don't go over that mileage agreement. Finance houses penalise for each mile you go over the agreed limit, but give nothing back for being under mileage.

With Contract Hire some finances houses will only accept you having the vehicle serviced at the main dealerships. There is of course the added advantage with contract hire for maintenance to be included with the package. It usually doesn't include tyres. So if you have a nail through the side wall, you are responsible to replace the tyre with the equivalent of the tyre that was damaged. Punctures are also not covered.

A lease vehicles have to be fully insured obviously and you will need GAP insurance as well. If the vehicle is written off in the first few months the value of the vehicle will always be less than the outstanding balance. If memory serves me you only 'broke even' well into the contract toward the end.

I'm not against leasing if you plan to replace your van on a regular basis. It doesn't matter how you finance a van, it depreciates at the same rate whether its on HP or Contract Hire.

Many people are against Contract Hire because they never own the vehicle. That argument doesn't really hold water because a van under HP doesn't belong to you until its fully paid off either - the finance house owns it.

 
Success is 1% inspiration, 98% perspiration and 2% attention to detail!

The older I get, the better I was ;)

dazmond

  • Posts: 23990
Re: Leasing a van? Or buying?
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2017, 11:57:13 pm »
i just see my leased van as another business expense (and put my prices up to cover the monthly rental.)

from enquiring about a new van to getting it delivered to my door took around 3 weeks.that quick.lovely jubbly.

im leasing mine for 5 years with a 7k balloon payment at the end of the lease.i can either pay it and keep the van or sell it and get another brand new one.if i do sell it and get more than £7k for it i pocket the difference(after tax).(mines a business finance lease).

i paid 3 X £215.96 up front then £215.96(including VAT) every month for 5 years.i can easily afford the monthly rental and its great having a new van.mines the top spec model with air con,heated drivers seat,bluetooth,heated windscreen.mirrors etc.a bit extravagant but i dont care.its only money!and its a great "shop window" for my business.

customers really do treat you more seriously when you pull up in a nice new van.i charge more too now! :)

ive had enough of old cars and vans.ive had them all my life but not anymore.i like to portray a more professional sleek image these days(even though its only window cleaning!!) ;D
price higher/work harder!

Plankton

  • Posts: 2441
Re: Leasing a van? Or buying?
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2017, 12:17:54 am »
This is a good deal... Peugeot Expert 1100kg payload 3 year contract, 3mth upfront, 8k miles per annum £186+vat pm includes ply lining and rear sensors. Insure it, service it and that's it! Oh and don't go mad with a drill!
https://www.nationwidevehiclecontracts.co.uk/Peugeot_Expert-standard-1000-1-6-bluehdi-115-professional-van-77984.htm

Spruce

  • Posts: 8466
Re: Leasing a van? Or buying?
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2017, 07:42:54 am »
This is a good deal... Peugeot Expert 1100kg payload 3 year contract, 3mth upfront, 8k miles per annum £186+vat pm includes ply lining and rear sensors. Insure it, service it and that's it! Oh and don't go mad with a drill!
https://www.nationwidevehiclecontracts.co.uk/Peugeot_Expert-standard-1000-1-6-bluehdi-115-professional-van-77984.htm

They have a nice comparison between leasing and buying a van

https://www.nationwidevehiclecontracts.co.uk/van-leasing/guides/van-leasing-vs-buying
Success is 1% inspiration, 98% perspiration and 2% attention to detail!

The older I get, the better I was ;)

Stoots

  • Posts: 6214
Re: Leasing a van? Or buying?
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2017, 05:18:51 pm »
A different way if doing things but I got my van on hp, 193 a month.

I will be putting only mileage through the books at 45p per mile.

This saves a lot of Messing about for tax.

If I cover 10k a year almost all of it will be business mileage let's say £4000 claimable
Real costs would be roughly 
£1350 will be fuel, 250 tax, 500 insurance, 300 servicing and m.o.t. so about 1500 quid to play with..saves putting the van thru the books so free to sell it when the hp is up without penalty. In reality I will finance another and use the sale price as a deposit. thanks

Spruce

  • Posts: 8466
Re: Leasing a van? Or buying?
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2017, 06:15:17 pm »
A different way if doing things but I got my van on hp, 193 a month.

I will be putting only mileage through the books at 45p per mile.

This saves a lot of Messing about for tax.

If I cover 10k a year almost all of it will be business mileage let's say £4000 claimable
Real costs would be roughly 
£1350 will be fuel, 250 tax, 500 insurance, 300 servicing and m.o.t. so about 1500 quid to play with..saves putting the van thru the books so free to sell it when the hp is up without penalty. In reality I will finance another and use the sale price as a deposit. thanks

So in essence you are doing the same as a guy is who leases.  In your case you have taken on the risk of the value of your 'asset' at the end of the  HP.  The  person who does a finance lease does the same.
With HP you still don't own the van even although its in your name. It only becomes yours when the final payment and any further admin charges are settled.

Your van depreciates at exactly the same rate.  How you finance it makes no difference to depreciation. No matter what sweetener the finance house uses, a rental payment or a lease payment covers the depreciation of the vehicle.

.
Success is 1% inspiration, 98% perspiration and 2% attention to detail!

The older I get, the better I was ;)

Stoots

  • Posts: 6214
Re: Leasing a van? Or buying?
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2017, 06:21:05 pm »
A different way if doing things but I got my van on hp, 193 a month.

I will be putting only mileage through the books at 45p per mile.

This saves a lot of Messing about for tax.

If I cover 10k a year almost all of it will be business mileage let's say £4000 claimable
Real costs would be roughly 
£1350 will be fuel, 250 tax, 500 insurance, 300 servicing and m.o.t. so about 1500 quid to play with..saves putting the van thru the books so free to sell it when the hp is up without penalty. In reality I will finance another and use the sale price as a deposit. thanks

So in essence you are doing the same as a guy is who leases.  In your case you have taken on the risk of the value of your 'asset' at the end of the  HP.  The  person who does a finance lease does the same.
With HP you still don't own the van even although its in your name. It only becomes yours when the final payment and any further admin charges are settled.

Your van depreciates at exactly the same rate.  How you finance it makes no difference to depreciation. No matter what sweetener the finance house uses, a rental payment or a lease payment covers the depreciation of the vehicle.

.

Not sure i follow

yes i understand the van only becomes mine at the end of hp and that depreciation is the same

but my understanding was a contract lease was merely a rental, for arguments sake say its 200 a month over 5 years, then you hand the van back?

with hp at 200 a month, you have the asset of the van once its paid off...


dazmond

  • Posts: 23990
Re: Leasing a van? Or buying?
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2017, 06:45:00 pm »
A different way if doing things but I got my van on hp, 193 a month.

I will be putting only mileage through the books at 45p per mile.

This saves a lot of Messing about for tax.

If I cover 10k a year almost all of it will be business mileage let's say £4000 claimable
Real costs would be roughly 
£1350 will be fuel, 250 tax, 500 insurance, 300 servicing and m.o.t. so about 1500 quid to play with..saves putting the van thru the books so free to sell it when the hp is up without penalty. In reality I will finance another and use the sale price as a deposit. thanks

So in essence you are doing the same as a guy is who leases.  In your case you have taken on the risk of the value of your 'asset' at the end of the  HP.  The  person who does a finance lease does the same.
With HP you still don't own the van even although its in your name. It only becomes yours when the final payment and any further admin charges are settled.

Your van depreciates at exactly the same rate.  How you finance it makes no difference to depreciation. No matter what sweetener the finance house uses, a rental payment or a lease payment covers the depreciation of the vehicle.

.

Not sure i follow

yes i understand the van only becomes mine at the end of hp and that depreciation is the same

but my understanding was a contract lease was merely a rental, for arguments sake say its 200 a month over 5 years, then you hand the van back?

with hp at 200 a month, you have the asset of the van once its paid off...

once the 5 years is up adam i have the option of selling my van and paying off the 7k balloon payment.if i sell it for more than 7k  i pocket the difference,OR i can hand it back and get another brand new van and set up another lease agreement,OR i can pay the balloon payment myself and keep the van.not sure what i will do yet.ive got 4 and a half years to make up my mind! ;D
price higher/work harder!

H2GoKent

  • Posts: 532
Re: Leasing a van? Or buying?
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2017, 06:47:09 pm »
A different way if doing things but I got my van on hp, 193 a month.

I will be putting only mileage through the books at 45p per mile.

This saves a lot of Messing about for tax.

If I cover 10k a year almost all of it will be business mileage let's say £4000 claimable
Real costs would be roughly 
£1350 will be fuel, 250 tax, 500 insurance, 300 servicing and m.o.t. so about 1500 quid to play with..saves putting the van thru the books so free to sell it when the hp is up without penalty. In reality I will finance another and use the sale price as a deposit. thanks
When I first starting out I did something similar. I set up a limited company, bought the van myself and charged the company 40 p a mile for business use, then after a couple of years I sold the van to the company before it needed repairing blinding idea.
I think I will just buy a van outright, not a new one but a nearly new, if I do the maths that is the best use of money for me.
A manager is generally someone who has been promoted to the position by someone else who didn't see them as a threat.
Hence all people are promoted to the level of their incompetence

H2GoKent

  • Posts: 532
Re: Leasing a van? Or buying?
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2017, 06:48:15 pm »
A different way if doing things but I got my van on hp, 193 a month.

I will be putting only mileage through the books at 45p per mile.

This saves a lot of Messing about for tax.

If I cover 10k a year almost all of it will be business mileage let's say £4000 claimable
Real costs would be roughly 
£1350 will be fuel, 250 tax, 500 insurance, 300 servicing and m.o.t. so about 1500 quid to play with..saves putting the van thru the books so free to sell it when the hp is up without penalty. In reality I will finance another and use the sale price as a deposit. thanks

So in essence you are doing the same as a guy is who leases.  In your case you have taken on the risk of the value of your 'asset' at the end of the  HP.  The  person who does a finance lease does the same.
With HP you still don't own the van even although its in your name. It only becomes yours when the final payment and any further admin charges are settled.

Your van depreciates at exactly the same rate.  How you finance it makes no difference to depreciation. No matter what sweetener the finance house uses, a rental payment or a lease payment covers the depreciation of the vehicle.

.

Not sure i follow

yes i understand the van only becomes mine at the end of hp and that depreciation is the same

but my understanding was a contract lease was merely a rental, for arguments sake say its 200 a month over 5 years, then you hand the van back?

with hp at 200 a month, you have the asset of the van once its paid off...

once the 5 years is up adam i have the option of selling my van and paying off the 7k balloon payment.if i sell it for more than 7k  i pocket the difference,OR i can hand it back and get another brand new van and set up another lease agreement,OR i can pay the balloon payment myself and keep the van.not sure what i will do yet.ive got 4 and a half years to make up my mind! ;D

Depends if you can get 7k for a 5 year old van, I guess you could if you look after it
A manager is generally someone who has been promoted to the position by someone else who didn't see them as a threat.
Hence all people are promoted to the level of their incompetence

֍Winp®oClean֍

  • Posts: 1690
Re: Leasing a van? Or buying?
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2017, 07:19:08 pm »
Even on the best deal it's still over 11k AND restricted to 8000 miles per year with no service costs included.
Personally, I would borrow 11k from bank, buy a nearly new van, run it for 8 years and have a 100% saleable asset at the end. The end is not a risk- it's an asset.
Comfortably Numb!

Spruce

  • Posts: 8466
Re: Leasing a van? Or buying?
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2017, 07:38:53 pm »
A different way if doing things but I got my van on hp, 193 a month.

I will be putting only mileage through the books at 45p per mile.

This saves a lot of Messing about for tax.

If I cover 10k a year almost all of it will be business mileage let's say £4000 claimable
Real costs would be roughly 
£1350 will be fuel, 250 tax, 500 insurance, 300 servicing and m.o.t. so about 1500 quid to play with..saves putting the van thru the books so free to sell it when the hp is up without penalty. In reality I will finance another and use the sale price as a deposit. thanks

So in essence you are doing the same as a guy is who leases.  In your case you have taken on the risk of the value of your 'asset' at the end of the  HP.  The  person who does a finance lease does the same.
With HP you still don't own the van even although its in your name. It only becomes yours when the final payment and any further admin charges are settled.

Your van depreciates at exactly the same rate.  How you finance it makes no difference to depreciation. No matter what sweetener the finance house uses, a rental payment or a lease payment covers the depreciation of the vehicle.

.

Not sure i follow

yes i understand the van only becomes mine at the end of hp and that depreciation is the same

but my understanding was a contract lease was merely a rental, for arguments sake say its 200 a month over 5 years, then you hand the van back?

with hp at 200 a month, you have the asset of the van once its paid off...


OK. We used to stack up contract hire and leasing deals so lets have a look into how these are done.

This first bit of info is the price of the van. What is its retail price, what discount are they getting from the supplying dealer and then what  additional bonus does the lease provider get from the manufacturer. (This bonus is usually target based and paid out to the lease provider on an annual basis. Its paid on vehicle registrations.)

As this bonus is performance related it isn't normally included in the lease providers figures. When they get paid it they usually take it for themselves as 'profit.'

Contract hire is all about what mileage the van is going to do over the period its being leased for. If you say you are doing 10k a year then over a 4 year lease your van will have covered 40k. They will then calculate (crystal ball) what they believe the van will be worth then. They deduct the future value from the purchase price and this leaves a figure which is depreciation.
If you tell the lease provider that your van is going to cover 20k a year, then the mileage at the end of the contract is 80k. That van will be worth less than the identical van with 40k on the clock. So the depreciation will be higher.

So the main portion of your rental is paying off that depreciation.  They then add other charges such as your annual road fund licence, and there will also be an interest charge tucked into that monthly payment as well.  When you hand the van back they will then sell it, hopefully at minimum what they estimated the van would be worth 4 years previously. Hence they are taking on the risk, not you.

The public have a strong leaning toward HP or PCP and leasing tends to be viewed with suspicion.  I've heard the argument that they wouldn't lease or rent their tv, but in the late 70's many people did rent their tvs. Time can change things.

Its what you feel comfortable with.

One needs to be very clear on what deal the sales person is selling you. And your own business circumstances are key.

Businesses don't tend to keep a vehicle for more than 3 or 4 years.  As the annual mileage increases so the value of the van reduces in proportion. Currently, a well kept and maintained 5 year old van with 50k on the clock is still worth something. So today, you have an asset once its paid off.
But many HP deals have copied the leasing pattern as van have become much more expensive than they were 15 years ago. (In 2000 we were selling a 1.9 Citroen Relay swb for £7995 + VAT and £25.00 registration fee. The same van - yes with better specs is around 3 times that amount.)
So to make the monthly payments more affordable and attractive they incorporate a final payment onto the end of the deal.  In some instances, that final payment is quite a lot and is higher than what the future anticipated value of the van will be.

We just can't fortell what the price of a van will be in 4 or 5 years time. There has already been a ripple in the used prices of diesels, and as our vans are nearly all diesels, the bottom could fall out of used prices if the government 'turns against' diesel users. Public opinion can change overnight. In fact it wouldn't take much to kill the diesel market altogether.
So with HP you take the risk of your vans future value.  (In 1999 the vehicle resale market was hit very hard with the 'rip off Britian' compaign driven by the public. Many people lost money because their cars weren't worth the final payment. But they were responsible for paying it none the less. It can easily happen again.)

If you have a final payment to make, then you could take out another loan to pay that HP contract off. But I would be pretty annoyed paying £5000 plus interest to own a van thats only worth £2000. If you take out an HP and pay your van off totally by the end of the contract, I'm sure your monthly repayment would be more than if you leased the same van. (You have to consider the initial payment/deposit in this as well.)

As I said earlier, the motor manufacturers want you to take out a lease. It gets you onto a treadmill of a new vehicle every 3 or 4 years that very difficult for you to get off from. Who wants to go from a new van every few years to owning an old dog of a van because thats all you can afford.

I'm with you on HP. I don't believe that we as an industry do that many miles annually. (There are the odd exceptions though).  Knowing what I do know, it wouldn't be contract hire for me in my business.
Success is 1% inspiration, 98% perspiration and 2% attention to detail!

The older I get, the better I was ;)

Stoots

  • Posts: 6214
Re: Leasing a van? Or buying?
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2017, 08:51:03 pm »
Thanks spruce, i appreciate your explanation

So rather than saying Hp is better than leasing its case of the individual deals and what suits the companys situation.

I cant see any reason to lease over hp for a sole trader window cleaner mind.

Plankton

  • Posts: 2441
Re: Leasing a van? Or buying?
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2017, 09:12:56 pm »
Even on the best deal it's still over 11k AND restricted to 8000 miles per year with no service costs included.
Personally, I would borrow 11k from bank, buy a nearly new van, run it for 8 years and have a 100% saleable asset at the end. The end is not a risk- it's an asset.
The Peugeot is around £8.5K over three years which is probably the deprecation and you can up the mileage to over 30k, you can also add servicing and tyres in for about £20 per month but at 8k per annum you won't go through tyres in three years  and servicing is 2 years. Or if you don't have the capital you can take out a business loan for a van and pay interest for five years and adding that to the deprecation doesn't look good.

֍Winp®oClean֍

  • Posts: 1690
Re: Leasing a van? Or buying?
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2017, 09:18:27 pm »
Even on the best deal it's still over 11k AND restricted to 8000 miles per year with no service costs included.
Personally, I would borrow 11k from bank, buy a nearly new van, run it for 8 years and have a 100% saleable asset at the end. The end is not a risk- it's an asset.
The Peugeot is around £8.5K over three years which is probably the deprecation and you can up the mileage to over 30k, you can also add servicing and tyres in for about £20 per month but at 8k per annum you won't go through tyres in three years  and servicing is 2 years. Or if you don't have the capital you can take out a business loan for a van and pay interest for five years and adding that to the deprecation doesn't look good.

The van in your link is over 11k with vat, deposit and fees. Add mileage and both the cost AND deposit increase.
Comfortably Numb!

Plankton

  • Posts: 2441
Re: Leasing a van? Or buying?
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2017, 11:17:23 pm »
£8899! Don't know where you get 11k from. Anyway all I was pointing out is that you're not tied to mileage, if you know what you are likely to do then you choose it beforehand and obviously the cost will change but it's only a few quid. If you go over it's 10p per mile.

֍Winp®oClean֍

  • Posts: 1690
Re: Leasing a van? Or buying?
« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2017, 11:33:41 pm »
£8899! Don't know where you get 11k from. Anyway all I was pointing out is that you're not tied to mileage, if you know what you are likely to do then you choose it beforehand and obviously the cost will change but it's only a few quid. If you go over it's 10p per mile.

It seems the link opens with a 4 year lease as default. I suppose it's whatever suites but you could get a cracking van to own outright for the same money- one which someone else has already paid the bulk of it's depreciation.
Comfortably Numb!