[paul alan]

How do I work this out?

I have just started the process of training someone up, I'll be paying £10 ph initially for part time hours but when full time I will pay min wage as basic but then performance based wages will take things up to around £11/£12.

I plan to have two people in my van whilst I'm not in it, me 2-3 days and them 3-4 days, maximising the profit from one van.

I think a reasonable target for them is £250.00 each for 9 hours work  in a day. So would be looking for around £500 for a day with two employees in my van.

If I'm paying £100 to each employee how much of the £300 left over could I expect to take for profit?

This is just my initial plan for next year, I would like to be able to take more time off and have people around that can run things if I cant

. Its not all about the profits, its more about maximising what I already have and being able to keep the business going while I take time off or worse if I should become ill.

[britishwill]

£100 for worker one
£100 for worker two
£100 for VAT
£70 for TAX
£130 for you

That how I see it and how it works for us but our 3 try and turnover more so my share is bigger

[p1w1]

I don't think 2 men in one van are not going to do double  of what 1 person can,  I think your figures are a bit wishful thinking in reality. Also 9 hour days in winter (is that including breaks)  their gonna need miners lights 

[Stoots]

Interesting post Paul as it's very similar to what I have in mind for my business next year. Couple of lads part time to reduce my hours actually in the van. Like you day the sole goal isnt money buy flexibility and an easier physical week.


First of all I would suspect if one man can do 250 then 2 won't do 500 as there will be travelling time, so maybe 2 would be more realistically doing 400-450? Depends how compact your work is I suppose. I k is travel time would impact mine to a degree.

Also if the above statement is true 130 profit from 500 turnover you have to question if it's viable. Now I've not done the math but those figure suggest there still other expense to come off before you get your slice. 100 quid profit hardly seems worth it in that case.

My plan is slightly different in that I don't want to go VAT registered. I think unless you plan to really kick on and get 10 vans out one day it's not worth going over.  I also think the logistics of running a huge window cleaning business would be a nightmare. I look at the problems now with non payers and bad customers etc and look at where my business loses money and do I want that on a large scale? Don't think I do.

My aim is to have a couple of guys maybe full time or part time with me out as well come in just under vat and free plenty of time up for myself to look into other business ventures.

I also wouldn't. Be doing 9 hour days, I know how hard graft it is to wfp all day at any pace and I never manage 9 or even 8 hours so couldn't expect an employee to slog his guys out all day.

I would go with 8:30 whilst 4 that covers you for the minimum daylight hours in winter. Perhaps offer a Saturday morning and overtime if they want it for things like add ons. 8:30 -4  paid 7 hours at 8 quid is £56 a day plus a bonus if they complete the day's work of £200 target.
I think that gives them time to do the work and not kill themselves in the process.
Wages near me are pretty much always minimum wage for unskilled work, 12 quid an hour for window cleaning is serious coin, maybe not where you are..

Remember less turnover with less expense still gives the same profit margin but less turnover means less vat (if u go that route)

[AuRavelling79]

Four years ago when I had Dan the Man working with me in my van - on mainly domestic and some small commercials (mainly sub £50 each) in an area about ten miles across  we would do just over £400 in a seven hour-ish day.  I did feel I was doing a bit more than half the work mind! 

On my own I do £250  on the same work (about £225 back then).

I paid him £10 ph and £100/£200 bonus for the month if a lower and higher target were reached. A further quarterly bonus of £100/200 if either of is targets were reached.

[paul alan]

I have no intention of going vat registered!

especially not if the bill is so substantial .

[Slacky]

On the figures you've put forward you won't have a choice.

[Small but perfectley formed]

why not pay 50%  of turnover - costs  if they do 500 and its 100 a day costs that leaves them 100 each and you 200 .
if i was employed on that i would work hard.

[Stoots]

VAT is the biggest hurdle for this business if you are mainly residential.

It's a massive hurdle, it's a 20% one.

I can't see the profit margins worth it in a huge business to compensate for the high levels of stress.

Use this game for what it is, great for sole traders and small businesses with good profit margins. Take your profits and invest them elsewhere imo.

[Lee Pryor]

VAT is the biggest hurdle for this business if you are mainly residential.

It's a massive hurdle, it's a 20% one.

I can't see the profit margins worth it in a huge business to compensate for the high levels of stress.

Use this game for what it is, great for sole traders and small businesses with good profit margins. Take your profits and invest them elsewhere imo.

That's a bit short sighted Adam. We do all houses and don't have the problems your talking about at all. You simply have do develop your business in the right way. Yes if you have lots of problems now and grow the same business then the same problems will be bigger but not if you make changes to cure those problems. I don't have any bad payers and I do mean none, and I don't have logistic problems either. You never actually pay 20% in vat because of claim backs. I find it's more like 15% at the most sometimes less.

[paul alan]

Thanks for all the reply's, helps put things into perspective for me.

So I would need to stay under the vat threshold, what's that around 70k?

If I was start another business that was under 70k would the two incomes be combined in the eye of the taxman?

I have another idea that is cleaning nut not window cleaning that I can make around the same kind of income from, I have some experience with caravan cleaning and I live in caravan city here.

 I know I can bring some work in there, I wouldn't even need 0.5% of the vans around here to make a very good business.

So yeah, wishful thinking in some ways.

I think if my van did 70kish a year and half of that was done by others it would still give me a comfortable lifestyle without breaking my back.

[paul alan]

VAT is the biggest hurdle for this business if you are mainly residential.

It's a massive hurdle, it's a 20% one.

I can't see the profit margins worth it in a huge business to compensate for the high levels of stress.

Use this game for what it is, great for sole traders and small businesses with good profit margins. Take your profits and invest them elsewhere imo.

That's a bit short sighted Adam. We do all houses and don't have the problems your talking about at all. You simply have do develop your business in the right way. Yes if you have lots of problems now and grow the same business then the same problems will be bigger but not if you make changes to cure those problems. I don't have any bad payers and I do mean none, and I don't have logistic problems either. You never actually pay 20% in vat because of claim backs. I find it's more like 15% at the most sometimes less.

what do you charge for consultations lee?

[nathankaye]

Going back a couple of years i would help out my friend on his work and him me. So we gave each other a day a week for payment to each other so money didnt pass between us. A slight flaw as i was better n faster, especially on ladder as i had more experience n confidence. So really i should have been paid more on top but being friends its "mates rates"

However it put me off employing properly because even though we had targets that we wanted to reach, ie 2 days work into one day. It didnt really work mostly due to talking to each other whilst working. Granted this was on trad working, one upstairs whilst other does down stairs.
So on wfp would they both clean one house each or both clean one house?? If both cleaning same house at a time how would you tackle talk time or even messing around time?? If an house each would a target bonus stop them getting bored or would it spoil worknas they race to meet target or compete against each other?

Also there's the worry that was highlighted on another thread.......you employ idiots and your equipmemt breaks or they leave it behind.

To me, unless you aim high its not worth even contemplating.  Unless the profit is seriously high because by changing how you work on your own and fine tuning your work and prices.... (for the profit you mentioned in your idea) theoretically you can make that extra profit in perhaps less time and hassle of employing

[Slacky]

Thanks for all the reply's, helps put things into perspective for me.

So I would need to stay under the vat threshold, what's that around 70k? £83,000.00

If I was start another business that was under 70k would the two incomes be combined in the eye of the taxman? Yes.

[Stoots]

VAT is the biggest hurdle for this business if you are mainly residential.

It's a massive hurdle, it's a 20% one.

I can't see the profit margins worth it in a huge business to compensate for the high levels of stress.

Use this game for what it is, great for sole traders and small businesses with good profit margins. Take your profits and invest them elsewhere imo.

That's a bit short sighted Adam. We do all houses and don't have the problems your talking about at all. You simply have do develop your business in the right way. Yes if you have lots of problems now and grow the same business then the same problems will be bigger but not if you make changes to cure those problems. I don't have any bad payers and I do mean none, and I don't have logistic problems either. You never actually pay 20% in vat because of claim backs. I find it's more like 15% at the most sometimes less.

Wouldn't even begin to argue with you Lee but I would assume your profit margins in terms of what you turnover to what you pay your staff would be much higher than my area.

I know you charge 20 odd quid for houses I charge a tenner for. And I wouldnt have thought your wages are double?

I don't think you can make a direct comparison between working up north and working down south

[Marc Stock]

Thanks for all the reply's, helps put things into perspective for me.

So I would need to stay under the vat threshold, what's that around 70k? £83,000.00

If I was start another business that was under 70k would the two incomes be combined in the eye of the taxman? Yes.

Vat reg threshold for 2017 is £85,000.

Vat de-reg threshold is £83,000.

By the 2018 budget it's likely going to be around the £88,000 mark by the looks of things.

It amazes me how a sole trader is doing business at these levels. Those self employment payments on account must be crippling.

 

[Dry Clean]

VAT is the biggest hurdle for this business if you are mainly residential.

It's a massive hurdle, it's a 20% one.

I can't see the profit margins worth it in a huge business to compensate for the high levels of stress.

Use this game for what it is, great for sole traders and small businesses with good profit margins. Take your profits and invest them elsewhere imo.

That's a bit short sighted Adam. We do all houses and don't have the problems your talking about at all. You simply have do develop your business in the right way. Yes if you have lots of problems now and grow the same business then the same problems will be bigger but not if you make changes to cure those problems. I don't have any bad payers and I do mean none, and I don't have logistic problems either. You never actually pay 20% in vat because of claim backs. I find it's more like 15% at the most sometimes less.

what do you charge for consultations lee?

Consultations ? you mean babble, if you don't want bad payers then get rid of bad payers, if you want to want to employ and stay
below the vat threshold that's not hard either, if you want to build an empire then you really want to be going well past the vat
threshold to make it worth the effort.
From what I'm reading you want to be able to take on a few employees and take a back seat in other words your two employees
have to make enough to pay three wages, with the vat threshold at around £85k it doesn't leave you with a lot of wriggle room.

[Lee Pryor]

VAT is the biggest hurdle for this business if you are mainly residential.

It's a massive hurdle, it's a 20% one.

I can't see the profit margins worth it in a huge business to compensate for the high levels of stress.

Use this game for what it is, great for sole traders and small businesses with good profit margins. Take your profits and invest them elsewhere imo.

That's a bit short sighted Adam. We do all houses and don't have the problems your talking about at all. You simply have do develop your business in the right way. Yes if you have lots of problems now and grow the same business then the same problems will be bigger but not if you make changes to cure those problems. I don't have any bad payers and I do mean none, and I don't have logistic problems either. You never actually pay 20% in vat because of claim backs. I find it's more like 15% at the most sometimes less.

Wouldn't even begin to argue with you Lee but I would assume your profit margins in terms of what you turnover to what you pay your staff would be much higher than my area.

I know you charge 20 odd quid for houses I charge a tenner for. And I wouldnt have thought your wages are double?

I don't think you can make a direct comparison between working up north and working down south

True

[Lee Pryor]

VAT is the biggest hurdle for this business if you are mainly residential.

It's a massive hurdle, it's a 20% one.

I can't see the profit margins worth it in a huge business to compensate for the high levels of stress.

Use this game for what it is, great for sole traders and small businesses with good profit margins. Take your profits and invest them elsewhere imo.

That's a bit short sighted Adam. We do all houses and don't have the problems your talking about at all. You simply have do develop your business in the right way. Yes if you have lots of problems now and grow the same business then the same problems will be bigger but not if you make changes to cure those problems. I don't have any bad payers and I do mean none, and I don't have logistic problems either. You never actually pay 20% in vat because of claim backs. I find it's more like 15% at the most sometimes less.

what do you charge for consultations lee?

£150 per hour plus VAT, minimum booking 3 hours. That also includes any advice and support over the phone you need for the following 12 months. Meetings are held at my office during afternoons. I ask for a list of points you want to cover in advance and recommend the meeting is recorded so you can refer back.

As for that being "babble" my "babble" has helped lots of people develop their businesses over the last 12 months and I continue to make new bookings. 3 over the next few weeks actually.

[Stoots]

VAT is the biggest hurdle for this business if you are mainly residential.

It's a massive hurdle, it's a 20% one.

I can't see the profit margins worth it in a huge business to compensate for the high levels of stress.

Use this game for what it is, great for sole traders and small businesses with good profit margins. Take your profits and invest them elsewhere imo.

That's a bit short sighted Adam. We do all houses and don't have the problems your talking about at all. You simply have do develop your business in the right way. Yes if you have lots of problems now and grow the same business then the same problems will be bigger but not if you make changes to cure those problems. I don't have any bad payers and I do mean none, and I don't have logistic problems either. You never actually pay 20% in vat because of claim backs. I find it's more like 15% at the most sometimes less.

what do you charge for consultations lee?

Consultations ? you mean babble, if you don't want bad payers then get rid of bad payers, if you want to want to employ and stay
below the vat threshold that's not hard either, if you want to build an empire then you really want to be going well past the vat
threshold to make it worth the effort.
From what I'm reading you want to be able to take on a few employees and take a back seat in other words your two employees
have to make enough to pay three wages, with the vat threshold at around £85k it doesn't leave you with a lot of wriggle room.

I think the  85k (or 88k soon) could provide a nice little business setup if you so wanted  to do it that way.

2 men 2 vans each turning over 40k a year. Easily do able at 1k a week is 52k each , minus hols sick days and bad weather etc should still see them being able to do the 40k a piece fairly comfortably (even up north)

If there both on 40 hour weeks that 16 5k roughly a piece plus a bit of employer's N.i maybe 17.5k each, obviously running costs on top...

Still should leave you with 40k pre tax profit which is equivalent to what a decent sole trader would turnover on his own.

Obviously you can pitch in as bit an do the other 8k if you want.

Not saying this would interest everyone but it's certainly a viable option if you wanted.