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C.C.S.

  • Posts: 954
batteries
« on: September 17, 2017, 05:22:37 pm »
Hi all. What batteries do you use for the pump(s)? I have two pumps run by a leisure battery which is also connected to the alternator by a split charger. But i went through 2 brand new ones in the last year .They don't seem to last .Also I charge it every 2 days  .Last week I've put a normal car battery 80ah from the scrap yard and I can get better flow then the leisure one

Spruce

  • Posts: 8466
Re: batteries
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2017, 06:55:54 am »
Hi all. What batteries do you use for the pump(s)? I have two pumps run by a leisure battery which is also connected to the alternator by a split charger. But i went through 2 brand new ones in the last year .They don't seem to last .Also I charge it every 2 days  .Last week I've put a normal car battery 80ah from the scrap yard and I can get better flow then the leisure one

What make and size of leisure batteries?

Do you run this as a 2 man system and if so how many hours a day do you work? Do you do mainly residential or do you work commercial as well?

What van have you got?

What split charge relay do you have?

What battery charger do you use?
Success is 1% inspiration, 98% perspiration and 2% attention to detail!

The older I get, the better I was ;)

C.C.S.

  • Posts: 954
Re: batteries
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2017, 05:11:00 pm »
Hi all. What batteries do you use for the pump(s)? I have two pumps run by a leisure battery which is also connected to the alternator by a split charger. But i went through 2 brand new ones in the last year .They don't seem to last .Also I charge it every 2 days  .Last week I've put a normal car battery 80ah from the scrap yard and I can get better flow then the leisure one

What make and size of leisure batteries?

Do you run this as a 2 man system and if so how many hours a day do you work? Do you do mainly residential or do you work commercial as well?

What van have you got?

What split charge relay do you have?

What battery charger do you use?

the battery is Lion 110ah
We are mainly domestic ,2 pumps,5-7 h a day.
The charger is a halfords one.Not sure on the split relay as it came with the system

Spruce

  • Posts: 8466
Re: batteries
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2017, 08:24:52 pm »
Hi all. What batteries do you use for the pump(s)? I have two pumps run by a leisure battery which is also connected to the alternator by a split charger. But i went through 2 brand new ones in the last year .They don't seem to last .Also I charge it every 2 days  .Last week I've put a normal car battery 80ah from the scrap yard and I can get better flow then the leisure one

What make and size of leisure batteries?

Do you run this as a 2 man system and if so how many hours a day do you work? Do you do mainly residential or do you work commercial as well?

What van have you got?

What split charge relay do you have?

What battery charger do you use?

the battery is Lion 110ah
We are mainly domestic ,2 pumps,5-7 h a day.
The charger is a halfords one.Not sure on the split relay as it came with the system

I had a Lion starter battery which was sold to me by our local motor factors. It lasted 18 months. It was replaced by an Oldham battery and that's fine. I know the owner of the motor factors and he said that supplying Lion batteries was one of the biggest mistakes he made as he had so many comebacks and the manufacturer wouldn't acknowledge a single claim.
Several other cleaners also purchased Lion batteries and they didn't last either. At one time they were very cheap via Internet supply. So imho opinion, put bluntly, the battery is 90% of your problem.

The original leisure batteries we had on the vans (3) were Numax and they have all exceeded our expectations. We still have an 85 amph unit on standby which is over 6 years old. (This battery was in son in law's van it is was only bench charged when it was too flat to run the pump. It was the most abused battery we have had and yet it's lasted the longest.) The only issue wih Numax is that at one time they would not acknowledge the warranty on their batteries used for wfp because, in their words, we destroy batteries. So we purchase Numax aware that if they fail then there is every chance we have to carry the warranty risk.

My original Numax 110 amp lasted over 3 years and just started to get a bit iffy after a long day with 2 of us working commercial.

We replaced the 5 year old Numax battery in son's van with another Numax about 6 months ago. The lastest Numax batteries show a CCA value which means they are becoming dual purpose batteries, starter and leisure.

The one thing about a split charge relay is it allows the higher charging voltage of the vans alternator to keep the chemical action inside the battery at optimum. My intelligent battery charger charges the battery at 13.9v max - my alternator does it from anywhere between 14.2 to 14.5v.  So having a little alternator boost via a SCR is a good thing.
Even after my van battery has been on charge all weekend with my intelligent charger, my van's alternator still pushes 2 or 3 amps into the battery on the journey to work. This tells me that the charger just isn't fully charging the battery.

We estimate that on residential our pumps run for about 50% of the working time. A pump draws about 4.5 to 5.0amps an hour using a flow controller. So on a 7 hour day we believe that both pumps would consume around 32  to 35 amps.

If you start off the day with a fully charged 110 amp leisure battery, you end up with about 75amps excluding any charge your SCR has returned. If you go out the next day and use another 35 amps then in theory you will have 40amps left. That's less than 1/2 charge.

We do very little mileage a day. Today we probably did 5 miles through our whole working day - that's also including the drive to work from home and back. On the way back the amp meter was registering 5 amps into the battery. So today we didn't spend any more than 30 minutes with the engine running. If that's so then we only put back 2.5 amps into the battery. So a SCR is not much use doing short journeys but its still a useful addition we should have.

The experts tell us that for battery longevity we should never let our batteries drop below 50% charge. I believe yours are dropping below that with a charge every second day.

On occasion we do a few large commercial properties. We estimate that our pumps run for around 80% of the time. In these instances we recharge the battery every night. On slow summer days I recharge my battery every 2nd night, but in winter it get charged every night. Plugging a charger into the van along with a frost heater doesn't take much time or effort as the van is parked on the driveway.

.






Success is 1% inspiration, 98% perspiration and 2% attention to detail!

The older I get, the better I was ;)

H2GoKent

  • Posts: 532
Re: batteries
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2017, 08:48:33 pm »
Over the last ten years or so I have tried leisure batteries and car batteries.
I used to have a leisure battery and take it out to charge, bit of a pain.

What I now do is have a largish (770amp 85ah) car battery, I purchased 10mtrs of  good battery cable online (ebay), got a friendly mechanic to wire the work battery in the back of the van so it charges while I drive, it has an isolator switch in he cab so I run the pump off the work battery and not the van so when I work a BIG day I do not ever run the risk of running down the van's battery.

I work 4 longish (10 or 11 hour) days each week and do some very large 10 hour jobs and the battery copes with them fine, being a car battery it is designed to recharge very quickly,  and I only drive a maximum of 15-20 mins to go to work and the battery has sat in my van working all day every day for two years without any issue . 
So I would buy the biggest car battery you can (they usually have a two year guarantee) and wire it up.

Like your previous poster you may have run the engine if you're very local to your work, but the recharge time on a car battery is very quick. Leisure batteries take longer to charge, so I prefer this way, over the last 14 years wfp it's the one that has worked best for me.
A manager is generally someone who has been promoted to the position by someone else who didn't see them as a threat.
Hence all people are promoted to the level of their incompetence

Spruce

  • Posts: 8466
Re: batteries
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2017, 08:31:31 pm »
Over the last ten years or so I have tried leisure batteries and car batteries.
I used to have a leisure battery and take it out to charge, bit of a pain.

What I now do is have a largish (770amp 85ah) car battery, I purchased 10mtrs of  good battery cable online (ebay), got a friendly mechanic to wire the work battery in the back of the van so it charges while I drive, it has an isolator switch in he cab so I run the pump off the work battery and not the van so when I work a BIG day I do not ever run the risk of running down the van's battery.

I work 4 longish (10 or 11 hour) days each week and do some very large 10 hour jobs and the battery copes with them fine, being a car battery it is designed to recharge very quickly,  and I only drive a maximum of 15-20 mins to go to work and the battery has sat in my van working all day every day for two years without any issue . 
So I would buy the biggest car battery you can (they usually have a two year guarantee) and wire it up.

Like your previous poster you may have run the engine if you're very local to your work, but the recharge time on a car battery is very quick. Leisure batteries take longer to charge, so I prefer this way, over the last 14 years wfp it's the one that has worked best for me.

What I find so interesting is how different people have total opposite experiences with the same situation. At one time I to had considered using a starter battery as an auxillary battery.

The first van system I installed was for my son in a Peugeot Partner 800LX 53 plate. I fitted an 85 amp leisure battery under the passenger seat with a split charge relay. I also added a change over switch so if the leisure battery went flat he could continue by drawing current from the van's starter battery.

Son used to take his Jack Russell to work. This dog used to go mental at the sight of any person or dog who came close to the van. In one of her mental states she knocked the change over switch and son was unknowingly working from his starter battery. Within 4 days his starter battery was flat and wouldn't start the van to come home. He was parked on a hill and bump started it.
We also do very limited mileage a day, 20 to 30 minutes engine running time at the most.

The following year his starter battery had to be replaced, so I tried to run the pump off his battery again. It again lasted for 4 days before it was flat.

One of the windies down south had the same van, doing more mileage - engine running in congestion and traffic jams etc,  and he only had his starter battery as his only power supply. He never charged his battery.

When son in law joined us a few years later he had a Transit Connect. We tried to run his pump directly from his starter battery.  He also travelled further to work, albeit mostly motor way driving. His van battery was flat within the week.  I had to jump start his van from my van with jumper cables. His van also used to do a lot more private mileage. For example they would drive out to his folks 30 miles round trip to have dinner and clean their windows.

I haven't been able to find any proof that a starter battery charges up faster than a leisure battery.  So if you know where to find that info it would be very helpful. The new calcium batteries do charge quicker but they are designed differently and can handle much higher carrier voltage.

Webasto make engine preheaters and are very common in vehicles supplied into cold countries.
At one time, their Thermo Top C was the preferred furnace for this application. The heater is used to heat up engine coolant and defrost the internal windscreen and warm the cabin. It was recommended that the heater required about 30 minutes to perform this task. To begin with the diesel heater will draw about 20 amps in short bursts for around 3 minutes to get the heater fired up and fully burning. It then runs on about 2.5 amps. The recommendation by Webasto is to ensure your car journey is as long as your engine preheater had worked for to keep the battery charged up. 

If the Webasto drew 20 amps for 3 minutes and ran for 27 minutes at 2.5 amps, the heater would draw less than 2.5 amps in 30 minutes. So Webasto are asking that the car/vehicle run for 30 minutes to replace the current the preheater drew. That sounds similar to leisure battery charging specs to me.

ATM P&F is just managing to break even with his solar panel charging setup. Even if he had a starter battery and it did charge faster than a leisure battery, it wouldn't make much difference to him as the problem is the panel wouldn't keep up with power consumption, especially during the darker winter days with limited sun.

My problem is that as a twin operator van, those solar panels will not be suppling anywhere near enough power for my daily consumption now because I probably use twice the amount Rich does. So my solar array on the roof of my van would need to be around 250 watts to supply my Autumn needs. Winter - well we wait to see how Rich's system performs.

.
Success is 1% inspiration, 98% perspiration and 2% attention to detail!

The older I get, the better I was ;)

P @ F

  • Posts: 6319
Re: batteries
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2017, 08:44:25 pm »
 :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(   ........ Not sayin a word !
I'm so lazy I'm getting tired of it !

H2GoKent

  • Posts: 532
Re: batteries
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2017, 08:32:36 pm »
Hi all. What batteries do you use for the pump(s)? I have two pumps run by a leisure battery which is also connected to the alternator by a split charger. But i went through 2 brand new ones in the last year .They don't seem to last .Also I charge it every 2 days  .Last week I've put a normal car battery 80ah from the scrap yard and I can get better flow then the leisure one

What make and size of leisure batteries?

Do you run this as a 2 man system and if so how many hours a day do you work? Do you do mainly residential or do you work commercial as well?

What van have you got?

What split charge relay do you have?

What battery charger do you use?
Thought i'd quote this as it's shorter.
All I can speak from is my own experience. When I first went wfp 14 years ago I worked from the light in the back of my van and it worked fine for a while, but after having to bump start my van a couple of times I learned a lesson.
 I have been told by more than one person that leisure batteries are designed to charge slowly and release power slowly, but a starter battery will recharge very quickly,  can't be bothered to google it just to win the argument, but I have found the starter battery wired up in my van works perfectly., and it has been in place working long days with little driving for 2 years.
A manager is generally someone who has been promoted to the position by someone else who didn't see them as a threat.
Hence all people are promoted to the level of their incompetence

C.C.S.

  • Posts: 954
Re: batteries
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2017, 08:06:20 pm »
Hi,
I've been looking around at batteries and found 2 and can't make up my mind which to get
https://www.tayna.co.uk/Numax-CXV31MF-P3694.html
https://www.tayna.co.uk/Numax-CXV30HRMF-P3673.html