[P @ F]

Thats about 6watts isnt it ?
We need minimum of 70 watt to stay on an even playing field !

[Spruce]

Thats about 6watts isnt it ?
We need minimum of 70 watt to stay on an even playing field !

Agree. That would be minimum for a single operator. 

The poster on the forum stated that that 0.5 amps wasn't something they could rely on all through the daylight hours in winter and was probably the maximum they could expect at noon when the sun was at its peak in the sky.
He did also state that being able to tilt panels toward the sun would improve the output, but having them secured flat on his van roof was a disadvantage. Not a helpful solution to us as window cleaners.
His advise was if funds were tight, he would rather spend money on a small quiet petrol generator to charge the batteries in winter rather than fitting solar panels.

Saltburn by the Sea hosts a music festival annually in the Spring. The high school opens up its car park as camping ground for motorhomes and caravans and the school playing fields for tents.
I noticed this year that a good number of caravaners/RVers had the portable folding panels chained and padlocked to their vehicles.

Ask anyone how they manage with their solar panels and most will tell you how wonderful they are.  Ask them how much power their units are producing at any given time and most haven't a clue what you are talking about. A few seemed to be very informed about the technicalities of solar where the majority are clueless. Solar seems to be an industry driven by sales people who live in a different climate to the UK. 
Caravaning is a recreation that the majority do during the summer and store their vans away during the winter. So actually their requirements from solar are vastly different to ours.

One of the problems we have is that we are a high power draw/user industry. Probably one of the reasons why the battery suppliers don't like us when it comes to warranty.

From a photo NathanKaye put up once of his solar panels, one was horizontally fixed to the roof and the other was loose which he angled toward the sun for extra power.  The panel secured to his roof appeared to be around 80 to 100 watts, but memory is quickly abandoning me. The portable panel was smaller.

I have posted before about being an avid armchair traveler and follow the progress of several Yachts and their crew in their around the world adventurers.
A couple of the yachts have 3 large solar panels mounted to the frame holding the tender out of the water, 2 wind generators and 1 also uses a water generator when sailing. The power they need is to mainly keep their navigational equipment, radio communications and auto pilot functioning. They need power to charge laptops and a little for lighting but don't have airconditioning and use propane (gas) for cooking. 
And they are in the tropics where they have an abundance of sunshine. They also have the provision of charging batteries with their engine/s running but they all have a petrol generator as a backup if needed.

.

[Elfyn]

I've been using a solar panel to keep a stand alone battery charged for about 18 months now and it's worked well. There have been times in the winter when I thought I'd have to leave a charger on over a weekend, but so far I haven't had to.

[P @ F]

Good post Spruce , it kind of points out that its not as simple as chucking a panel on the roof !

Nathankaye has a 20watt panel on the roof , thats why i found his video hard to take in , it was charging to the point that he was having to disconect for fear of overcharge , sure there were clouds in the sky , but it looked more sunny spell kind of weather .
That being said , even with peak sun and the panel at the correct angle the most you could expect from that panel is 75% (15w).
He should have been on the back foot from the word go , using 70w per hour and gaining 15 per hour max .
I think he said he was out for 4 or so hours , yet he returned home fully charged or close to anyway.
He could have put max of 60 watt into the system via panel , thats why i kept asking how long the pump had been running out of that 4 hours and how much water was used , he has not ansered yet !
With that info we could stand a chance of seeing real performance limitations , for me its not worth spending out yet until i see that i can put at least  280 watt into my system  , this would cover me for 4 hours of the pump running , ok it wont be running that long out of the usual 5 hours working time but you have to take worst case scenario with solar .
Lets not forget those days where you dont see direct sun all day long !
In short , i will have to produce 280 watt of power every day over the days daylight hours to make it a plug and go system , which short of putting a solar farm on the roof of my Fiat Fiorino is a pretty tall order .
Good job i love a challenge isnt it     

[P @ F]

I've been using a solar panel to keep a stand alone battery charged for about 18 months now and it's worked well. There have been times in the winter when I thought I'd have to leave a charger on over a weekend, but so far I haven't had to.

This is what we need , what does your solar set up consist of , and do you have a split charge also Elfyn ?

[Dry Clean]

Good post Spruce , it kind of points out that its not as simple as chucking a panel on the roof !

Nathankaye has a 20watt panel on the roof , thats why i found his video hard to take in , it was charging to the point that he was having to disconect for fear of overcharge , sure there were clouds in the sky , but it looked more sunny spell kind of weather .
That being said , even with peak sun and the panel at the correct angle the most you could expect from that panel is 75% (15w).
He should have been on the back foot from the word go , using 70w per hour and gaining 15 per hour max .
I think he said he was out for 4 or so hours , yet he returned home fully charged or close to anyway.
He could have put max of 60 watt into the system via panel , thats why i kept asking how long the pump had been running out of that 4 hours and how much water was used , he has not ansered yet !
With that info we could stand a chance of seeing real performance limitations , for me its not worth spending out yet until i see that i can put at least  280 watt into my system  , this would cover me for 4 hours of the pump running , ok it wont be running that long out of the usual 5 hours working time but you have to take worst case scenario with solar .
Lets not forget those days where you dont see direct sun all day long !
In short , i will have to produce 280 watt of power every day over the days daylight hours to make it a plug and go system , which short of putting a solar farm on the roof of my Fiat Fiorino is a pretty tall order .
Good job i love a challenge isnt it 

Nathan also heats his water to 60degrees in around 10 hours with a one kilowatt immersion heater, nice guy who's heart is in the
right place but his technical advice should be taken with a pinch of salt.

[P @ F]

Good post Spruce , it kind of points out that its not as simple as chucking a panel on the roof !

Nathankaye has a 20watt panel on the roof , thats why i found his video hard to take in , it was charging to the point that he was having to disconect for fear of overcharge , sure there were clouds in the sky , but it looked more sunny spell kind of weather .
That being said , even with peak sun and the panel at the correct angle the most you could expect from that panel is 75% (15w).
He should have been on the back foot from the word go , using 70w per hour and gaining 15 per hour max .
I think he said he was out for 4 or so hours , yet he returned home fully charged or close to anyway.
He could have put max of 60 watt into the system via panel , thats why i kept asking how long the pump had been running out of that 4 hours and how much water was used , he has not ansered yet !
With that info we could stand a chance of seeing real performance limitations , for me its not worth spending out yet until i see that i can put at least  280 watt into my system  , this would cover me for 4 hours of the pump running , ok it wont be running that long out of the usual 5 hours working time but you have to take worst case scenario with solar .
Lets not forget those days where you dont see direct sun all day long !
In short , i will have to produce 280 watt of power every day over the days daylight hours to make it a plug and go system , which short of putting a solar farm on the roof of my Fiat Fiorino is a pretty tall order .
Good job i love a challenge isnt it 

Nathan also heats his water to 60degrees in around 10 hours with a one kilowatt immersion heater, nice guy who's heart is in the
right place but his technical advice should be taken with a pinch of salt.

The results are too good to be true territory , thats why i am asking for other results , im just waiting to see what Elfyn has .

[nathankaye]

Im posting another couple of vids today working flat out like i said the other day so a true reflection of my working day. I will post them later in evening so i can crack on working then.

Sure videos could be edited etc or even photos for that matter, but i aint got time or patience for either. Thats why littke vids you can see what im doing and how i work and take of it what you will

[nathankaye]

Apologies if im a grump as my hose has just flied of my reel and sprayed me in face with 60 odd degree water so not happy to say least!!

Ok a couple of vids showing from half 10 this morning. Before then i was using back pack so kinda pointless.
Ive taken it nearly on the hour after cleaning 15 houses, make of it as you will!!

Ive said many a times its a 20w and a 10w panel....i dont have problems working a day but then im normally finished be 4 latest and odd times at 5pm.  Winter i may bench charge but not regular infact i was working in t-shirts a couple of decembers back so dont worry or overthink winter...deal with it when u get to it.
Its a bit like the chaps who dont work in rain because its raining.......yet half of the time its not even raining on the windows. Hope u can see the point im making.

Anyway heres the vids and make of them as u want

https://youtu.be/V3MzIJaJsE0
https://youtu.be/M3Jtnj7CmqE
https://youtu.be/NQFbLh5ZzUs
https://youtu.be/1tdW3uI27Wg

[Den68]

So how many amps does a pump use that way it would be easier trying to get a understanding of what size panel would be needed to replace the amps used each day.

[Spruce]

We estimated on a fairly compact residential round like Nathan had videoed that our pumps would run for about 50% of the time.  The rest of the time is hose management, wiping sills and doing paperwork. Our Shurflo pumps draw about 4.5 amps an hour on our flow rate using a controller.

[Den68]

4.5 amps is that each pump or 4.5 amps for both?

[P @ F]

4.5 amps is that each pump or 4.5 amps for both?

That is per pump

[P @ F]

4.5 amps is that each pump or 4.5 amps for both?

That is per pump

Dont forget though , if you run a shuflo at full pelt it will pull 6 amps an hour

[P @ F]

Apologies if im a grump as my hose has just flied of my reel and sprayed me in face with 60 odd degree water so not happy to say least!!

Ok a couple of vids showing from half 10 this morning. Before then i was using back pack so kinda pointless.
Ive taken it nearly on the hour after cleaning 15 houses, make of it as you will!!

Ive said many a times its a 20w and a 10w panel....i dont have problems working a day but then im normally finished be 4 latest and odd times at 5pm.  Winter i may bench charge but not regular infact i was working in t-shirts a couple of decembers back so dont worry or overthink winter...deal with it when u get to it.
Its a bit like the chaps who dont work in rain because its raining.......yet half of the time its not even raining on the windows. Hope u can see the point im making.

Anyway heres the vids and make of them as u want

https://youtu.be/V3MzIJaJsE0
https://youtu.be/M3Jtnj7CmqE
https://youtu.be/NQFbLh5ZzUs
https://youtu.be/1tdW3uI27Wg

Cheers for that Nathan , i have just been watching a bit more youtube and i think that you are getting good results due to the fact that you dont use the solar controller , most panels chuck out 20v , that is what you are putting straight into the battery , it obviously isnt a massive issue for you as you keep a close eye on it via the PF controller on volt setting , it is going in even though its telling you that you are up to 14/15volts , all you have to watch for is cooking the battery , but you seem to be getting away with it !!!
Good work fella 

[P @ F]

Nathan , how long have you been using that same battery with the panels ?

[Spruce]

What happening is Nathan's controller is showing voltage. It will read high because the panel pushes out a high voltage. The important piece is the amps the panel is producing.

When I start my van's engine the voltmeter across the leisure battery could be anywhere between 14.2 and 14.6 volts depending on the capacity of the leisure battery.
But It doesn't mean the amps drawn have been replaced. All the volts are is the carrier for the amps.

So today we have Nathan working on his estate for 2.25 hours.  He has a 20 watt panel on his roof and that's all that he used today. In our estimation his pump ran for approx 1 hour, maybe a little more. The rest of the time was doing other stuff.
So at the flow rate he uses my guess is that his pumps will draw about 5 amps an hour.

Lets assume that his battery was fully charged before he started work.  His 20 watt panel can only produce 1.6 amps if its working at 100% efficiency. So at 100% efficiency his panels returned  3.6 amps to the battery but his pump drew 5 amps. If the panel was working at 50% of capacity then the figures look worse as he would only put back 1.8 amps, a deficit of 3.2amps.

If he didn't charge his battery last night then there is a possibility that he could have got a couple of charging hours in before work, the battery will still be charging whilst he is eating his carvery and when he finishes this evening he may still have an hour or 2 charging tonight. He doesn't work on a weekend then he has 2 days of charging going into his battery with nothing going out. So maybe over a week the figures might just balance out.

But winter is the problem as the days are shorter. I plug my van in every night and connect up a frost heater, so it is not any further issue to plug in the chargers for the leisure battery and the backpack. I do it every night.

So for me solar is a summer luxury to keep my leisure battery fully charged but questionable in winter.

If you do this then I believe you do need to complicate things. Your need a couple of large 120 watt panels and a decent MPPT controller such as the Victron. This will set you back a good £300- £400 pounds. I think for me the money is better spent cutting out rust and welding new metal patch panels in under my van. before my tank falls through the floor onto the road. 

.

[Den68]

http://www.campingandcaravanningclub.co.uk/helpandadvice/technicalhelp/solar-power/

Spruce The above link I was reading just before you posted your last post  the chart shows the difference between summer and winter charging can vary massively.

[Spruce]

http://www.campingandcaravanningclub.co.uk/helpandadvice/technicalhelp/solar-power/

Spruce The above link I was reading just before you posted your last post  the chart shows the difference between summer and winter charging can vary massively.

I see the difference between summer and winter is quite dramatic looking at that chart. Thanks for the link. It seems to  back up what the guy on the forums said.

I'm fully aware of the limitations of my split charge relay charging my leisure battery. The temptation is to try out the Sterling Battery to Battery charger. Charles Sterling shows a dramatic difference with the charging rate (amps) of his leisure battery with a split charge relay compared to a battery to battery charger using the same battery  and charge vehicle.

But again I still have to plug my van in every night during the winter, so having an expensive battery to battery charger can't be justified. I've done this winter routine for the past 9 years so I'm figuring another couple of years won't make any difference.

[Den68]

Think your right maybe I will stick to taking the charger out to the van a couple of times a week, also if I get  a new vehicle in the future I would consider the ring b2b charger as posted earlier on this thread due to having the mppt solar energy charger inbuilt in.