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Lee GLS

  • Posts: 3844
FAO spruce
« on: January 05, 2017, 01:12:40 pm »
Hi spruce. You are up on Peugeot Citroen vans arnt you?

I'm looking to change my van but don't really want a Euro5 with a dpf as we don't do the mileage. Do you know what the newest euro4 dispatch / expert is?

Spruce

  • Posts: 8462
Re: FAO spruce
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2017, 04:27:40 pm »
Hi spruce. You are up on Peugeot Citroen vans arnt you?

I'm looking to change my van but don't really want a Euro5 with a dpf as we don't do the mileage. Do you know what the newest euro4 dispatch / expert is?

Hi Lee

Euro 4 started in January 2006 and by 2009 legislation added a dpf filter to all light commercial diesel vans.

So you can be sure that the Dispatch/Expert/Scudo Facelift from 2004 - 2006 didn't have dpf filters. There where still some of these registered in 2007. But under body rust seems to be an issue with these vans.

The second generation from 2006 till the facelift in 2012 is a bit of a grey area.

I'm not exactly sure when  the Citroen Dispatch added dpf although I'd be pretty sure that the Dispatch from 2008  would have include dpf with those vans but its not a given. Euro 5 came into force in September 2009, so every van registered after that date will have dpf.
The trouble is that I've known Citroen add updated technology in anticipation of a rule change, but its generally accepted that very few diesel vehicles manufactured before 2006 had a diesel particulate filter fitted.  So in some cases its was only a registration number/chassis number that would identify exactly what parts are fitted to the particular model.

Not exactly helpful but the only guaranteed way is to look underneath. (That advice came from the AA's website btw.)

Unfortunately,  drivers including myself with low mileage vans without dpf will be badly penalised  with future emissions taxation and inner city emission zone tolls. So we may save on one hand but will get hammered on the other.

.


Success is 1% inspiration, 98% perspiration and 2% attention to detail!

The older I get, the better I was ;)

Lee GLS

  • Posts: 3844
Re: FAO spruce
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2017, 05:57:41 pm »
Thanks spruce. I was hoping to get something around 2010 without, I'm pretty sure the transits only went Euro 5 in 2011, I don't do any city driving so it's not an issue.

I had a custom as a courtesy van, it did a regent in the way home from picking it up, within a week it needed another regen, that is the sort of driving I do, I can foresee problems when I eventually have to get a van with a DPF.

Do you know what the 2.0 hdi is like for reliability?

Spruce

  • Posts: 8462
Re: FAO spruce
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2017, 10:35:42 am »
Thanks spruce. I was hoping to get something around 2010 without, I'm pretty sure the transits only went Euro 5 in 2011, I don't do any city driving so it's not an issue.

I had a custom as a courtesy van, it did a regent in the way home from picking it up, within a week it needed another regen, that is the sort of driving I do, I can foresee problems when I eventually have to get a van with a DPF.

Do you know what the 2.0 hdi is like for reliability?

Your comment about the short time between regen on that van was a surprise to me. But my 2.0 hdi exhaust pipe is full of soot so it does make sense when I think about it. My engine doesn't produce any visible smoke on hard acceleration either.

Every van registered after September 2009 will have a dfp filter.  If it didn't and was still in new stock, then those vans would have all been registered by the dealerships or manufacturers before September and sold as pre registered vans after Sept 2009.

The 2.0 hdi is a very good engine. I believe it to be the best out there. (This also includes the Ford Tdci as they are basically the same engines.)

 I've added the 1.6 into this as its been the most popular engine sold in these vans. I would be careful of the early 1.6 hdi TBH. If a seller is boasting that its just had a new turbo fitted then this is a cause for concern. Has the job been done properly? If it hasn't then you will be doing it again very shortly. Those early 1.6 hdi Dispatches, Experts and Scudo's all used the same engine and had turbo issues if they weren't serviced correctly using the right sump draining methods and correct replacement oil. They were know as very dirty engines in the industry.

Initially, the 2.0hdi engine in the Berlingo/Partner vans were going to be replaced with 1.4 hdi engines.  The mechanics were all sent on repair courses down to Slough for training on this development.  In the end it never happened and the 1.6 hdi was the engine that was fitted.  Citroen would never tell us why the 1.6 was fitted over the 1.4. Renault had the 1.5 diesel, so the competition probably forced their hand into another decision.

The last of the production line of Citroen Xsaras were fitted with 1.4 hdi engines replacing the 2.0hdi but the 1.4 wasn't well received, even although it performed better than the 1.4 petrol engine in the same car and was more economical. Its all about customer perception.

1.6 hdi engines in later vans don't seem to be as troublesome as the earlier ones did. I've seen some examples of vans with high mileages which have been trouble free. I still wouldn't buy a used high mileage van though. I've seen so many trouble free high milers turn into a maintenance nightmare for the new owner.

A customer of ours worked in a Peugeot workshop as a trouble shooter until just recently. He did say that the dfp management software had been dramatically improved since dpf was first fitted, but Peugeot were charging for a software upgrade as it wasn't classed as a warranty job that PSA paid for.  Ford played the same game. The first variants to have dfp fitted were a workshop headache according to him. So if you are looking at around 2010 then a good service history is very important.

 I'm like you doing only short trips which aren't long enough to get engine temperatures much above cold in winter, let alone regenerate a dfp filter.  I have to drive a long way to find a motorway or stretch of bypass long enough and traffic free to get a dfp filter to regenerate. The latest vans will also have an Adblue tank to fill as well.

I'm not sure where we go for here long term tbh.  The commercial market is still driven by diesel engines. A couple of years ago I could see smaller vans heading back to turbo petrol engines. I based that on the small ECO engines being fitted to the Focus as an example.
My feeling is that they just haven't got the torque to compete with a diesel engine though. We saw an example of that with the Citroen C5. The 2.0 hdi fitted to that car got towcar of the year award on at least one occasion. The engine was better than the 2.2 in the same car. Then they replaced the 2.0 hdi  with the 1.6 hdi mapped to the same 110 hp. The engine performed OK in the car alone but as far as towing anything, wouldn't pull the proverbial skin off a milk pudding. The diesel manufacturers have also spent vast fortunes developing the engine to meet Euro emissions over the years, so they are going to promote the diesel engine to ensure a return on their investment.

 So it looks as though the van market will just have to bear the higher diesel running costs and pass them onto the customer until another development hits the market.

Success is 1% inspiration, 98% perspiration and 2% attention to detail!

The older I get, the better I was ;)

Lee GLS

  • Posts: 3844
Re: FAO spruce
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2017, 11:09:22 am »
Thanks for you ever informative reply  :)

I think it's something I'm going to have to live with, but I have just come across a 2009 2.0 LPG dispatch which looks quite interesting, trouble is it's only an L1, I really wanted an L2, also the probably will be a but wheezey compared to the diesel even though that have 140bhp...

Spruce

  • Posts: 8462
Re: FAO spruce
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2017, 12:53:11 pm »
Thanks for you ever informative reply  :)

I think it's something I'm going to have to live with, but I have just come across a 2009 2.0 LPG dispatch which looks quite interesting, trouble is it's only an L1, I really wanted an L2, also the probably will be a but wheezey compared to the diesel even though that have 140bhp...

Our local garage has stopped selling LPG. So for us our nearest LPG forecourt is 5 miles away.

TBH I'm not a fan of LPG conversions. The LPG system needs an annual service and the main dealerships usually ignore any LPG related servicing.

We did a couple of LPG conversions for customers, both with Mclaren LPG systems. The Citroen Relay was rather troublesome and the local agents weren't very helpful.

The other conversion was on a 1.4 Berlingo van and that was fine.
However, servicing was an issue as I had to fight with the mechanics that part of the annual service was regapping the clearances on the valve tappets. LPG accelerates valve wear.
The mechanics didn't want to do that as it meant loosing bonus time.
One of them even lied that he had done it when he hadn't. I was deemed a trouble maker for meddling in the workshop affairs.

If it happened in our garage, then I'm pretty sure it would have been an issue in other marque dealerships.

A decent size LPG tank takes up space in the van. As the safest place is across the front bulkhead, a lot a workable space is lost.

The issue of value is an important one to consider. Most pressure vessels need a pressure test every 10 or 15 years depending on what they are. There is no requirement for LPG tanks fitted to vehicles as it was assumed that they would last the working life of the vehicle it was fitted to and scrapped at the same time - an average of about 10 years was assumed.

If you do a search for the disposal of vehicles with LPG tanks, so will find they are subject to some pretty strict regulations. This adds to an older LPG vehicles desirability as someone will have to pick up the cost of dismantling this vehicles.
Here's one;
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/31806/11-849-removal-of-lpg-tanks-guidance.pdf

Notice toward the end of the document, they have to call in the experts/specialists to 'drain' these tanks. That sounds costly. Ebay was full of tank listings for tanks that still had LPG in them at one time.

TBH your van will be worthless in a couple of years time.

I just can't think of the name of the company in our part of the world that has the contract to clean bus shelters/bus stops. I can see the vans. I'm sure this company was replacing the vans they use and they were LPG vans.  A couple of the dealers must have bought them on auction.

The trouble is also that if you have an LPG heater you can't tap into the line from this gas tank as its not a vapour tank.
You need another tank.
.
Success is 1% inspiration, 98% perspiration and 2% attention to detail!

The older I get, the better I was ;)

Lee GLS

  • Posts: 3844
Re: FAO spruce
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2017, 01:33:12 pm »
Thanks for you ever informative reply  :)

I think it's something I'm going to have to live with, but I have just come across a 2009 2.0 LPG dispatch which looks quite interesting, trouble is it's only an L1, I really wanted an L2, also the probably will be a but wheezey compared to the diesel even though that have 140bhp...

Our local garage has stopped selling LPG. So for us our nearest LPG forecourt is 5 miles away.

TBH I'm not a fan of LPG conversions. The LPG system needs an annual service and the main dealerships usually ignore any LPG related servicing.

We did a couple of LPG conversions for customers, both with Mclaren LPG systems. The Citroen Relay was rather troublesome and the local agents weren't very helpful.

The other conversion was on a 1.4 Berlingo van and that was fine.
However, servicing was an issue as I had to fight with the mechanics that part of the annual service was regapping the clearances on the valve tappets. LPG accelerates valve wear.
The mechanics didn't want to do that as it meant loosing bonus time.
One of them even lied that he had done it when he hadn't. I was deemed a trouble maker for meddling in the workshop affairs.

If it happened in our garage, then I'm pretty sure it would have been an issue in other marque dealerships.

A decent size LPG tank takes up space in the van. As the safest place is across the front bulkhead, a lot a workable space is lost.

The issue of value is an important one to consider. Most pressure vessels need a pressure test every 10 or 15 years depending on what they are. There is no requirement for LPG tanks fitted to vehicles as it was assumed that they would last the working life of the vehicle it was fitted to and scrapped at the same time - an average of about 10 years was assumed.

If you do a search for the disposal of vehicles with LPG tanks, so will find they are subject to some pretty strict regulations. This adds to an older LPG vehicles desirability as someone will have to pick up the cost of dismantling this vehicles.
Here's one;
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/31806/11-849-removal-of-lpg-tanks-guidance.pdf

Notice toward the end of the document, they have to call in the experts/specialists to 'drain' these tanks. That sounds costly. Ebay was full of tank listings for tanks that still had LPG in them at one time.

TBH your van will be worthless in a couple of years time.

I just can't think of the name of the company in our part of the world that has the contract to clean bus shelters/bus stops. I can see the vans. I'm sure this company was replacing the vans they use and they were LPG vans.  A couple of the dealers must have bought them on auction.

The trouble is also that if you have an LPG heater you can't tap into the line from this gas tank as its not a vapour tank.
You need another tank.
.

There is a company Bristol way that are selling some, they said there were from some sort of cleaning company.

They have a 77L tank in place of the spare wheel, so no space would be lost inside.

I will take a better look at the info you have posted later, thanks, I'm not to worried but the depreciation value, if I could get a nice van I would keep it until its scrap anyway, we only do 6/7k a year so they aren't going to clock up the mileage to quickly

Spruce

  • Posts: 8462
Re: FAO spruce
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2017, 01:50:17 pm »
I'm sure the company is Clear Channel UK and they use silver vans with their logo on them. The only ones I've seen have been L1 vans.
Success is 1% inspiration, 98% perspiration and 2% attention to detail!

The older I get, the better I was ;)