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Crystal-clear

  • Posts: 3029
Pumping fine but on 8mm hose :S? any ideas
« on: April 21, 2016, 10:27:18 am »
Hello all ,
It's been a while since I posted last

Well as above pretty much , tanks down to around 15% just below the pump, normally the pump is able to continuing sucking the water through , but on yesterday's hot day it just strangly got confused and started to stop start you know,

Started the calibration process but it didn't work properly and after 1 hour it's still not working , I'm going to fill the tank today then recalibrate perhapes it isn't able to calibrate properly if the water level isn't well above the pump?



Mick Kent

  • Posts: 1380
Re: Full tank required to calibrate? Varistream
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2016, 12:39:13 pm »
Hello stranger.
Good to see you back posting again. :)

Smurf

  • Posts: 8538
Re: Full tank required to calibrate? Varistream
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2016, 01:36:04 pm »
I just use an old pf trolley static in the van and just dump a 3m inlet hose into the lid of the van tanks I want to use so your issue has nothing to do with how high the pump is in relation to the tank water level.

Set up that way I can run either tank dry no probs as then I just a case of bleeding the air out to prime the pump again properly.
Sounds to me you still have air getting into the system as when a tank get low with a bottom outlet the water sloshing about (more so on flat tanks) will let air into the inlet pump hose/pipe work so could give you grief.

To prime the pump and bleed all the air out of the system take off the outlet hose to the reel. Then wack the controller up to full throtle. This make take quite a while but you know when it's primed as the tone of the pump will change and you will get a strong flow.

Also maybe worth checking for any kinked hoses, leaks, blocked inline filters etc you may have too and obviously the power to the pump and controller is sound.

Ian Sheppard

  • Posts: 1227
Re: Full tank required to calibrate? Varistream
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2016, 02:11:58 pm »
I just use an old pf trolley static in the van and just dump a 3m inlet hose into the lid of the van tanks I want to use so your issue has nothing to do with how high the pump is in relation to the tank water level.

Set up that way I can run either tank dry no probs as then I just a case of bleeding the air out to prime the pump again properly.
Sounds to me you still have air getting into the system as when a tank get low with a bottom outlet the water sloshing about (more so on flat tanks) will let air into the inlet pump hose/pipe work so could give you grief.

To prime the pump and bleed all the air out of the system take off the outlet hose to the reel. Then wack the controller up to full throtle. This make take quite a while but you know when it's primed as the tone of the pump will change and you will get a strong flow.

Also maybe worth checking for any kinked hoses, leaks, blocked inline filters etc you may have too and obviously the power to the pump and controller is sound.

Yep would pretty much agree, If the water level is below or close to the outlet air in the system is the likely culprit..
V16 Is Here
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Crystal-clear

  • Posts: 3029
Re: Full tank required to calibrate? Varistream
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2016, 02:24:14 pm »
Lol hi mick wasn't sure if you would be on here still it's been a while,
Right I've got more news
It isn't air
I took 2 hours trying to calibrate then auto calibrate it wasn't happening , unreeled the hose fully pole on floor wasn't happening

It keeps saying PS which is pressure switch I only bought the pump 3 months ago , i have problems with pumps 1-2 years and I just buy a new one but in annoyed it's only 3 months the vendor says he won't give me a warranty saying he never gets a penny from the company called Williamson pumps

Any further advice? I managed to get some sort of slow flow going it's when I turn the flow down to 50-60 it works but it's not a normal 50-60 if you know what I mean, I prefer a higher flow 80*
If it's the pressure switch can I rip it out I really don't give a crap and I prefer having 100psi battery always charged
Further more is the vendor right as in no warranty? I can't argue with him he is my only local shop he gave me a number and told me to try and call them
All this aside if removing the PS works how can I do it ?
I also undid the hoses connecting and going from the pump cleaned the filter too, the water levlel doesn't seem to totally fill the little metal filter too if that means anything

Ian Sheppard

  • Posts: 1227
Re: Full tank required to calibrate? Varistream
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2016, 02:34:05 pm »
PS (pressure switch) will display on the controller for one of two reasons ! Pressure build up in the system activates the pump PS.
2. Electrical/cable fault.

As you are getting some at 50 - 60 but not at higher flow rates something is building up pressure in the system. Now this could be 1. Miss matched or leaking hose connector
2. Dirt or grit in the hose/Brush jets
3. Faulty reel valve
4. Di Beads or particles in the pump head
5. Blocked or jammed pump pre filter/connectors
6. Some of the pump have an adjustable pressure switch

Have you 

At 3 months I do not think the pump PS is the issue, easy way to check is switch to a spare pump if you have one.  May be worth calling Williamson and checking if the pump is under warranty

The controller although designed to work with a pump pressure switch will operate if you bypass the pump PS. But I suspect you have a blockage of some kind and with out locating and clearing that flow rates are not likely to improve.
V16 Is Here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AhbZirSlpI&t=8s
Polarity Protect technology

Crystal-clear

  • Posts: 3029
Re: Full tank required to calibrate? Varistream
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2016, 02:56:14 pm »
Thanks for reply
Their is a clicking sound coming from the split relay when the system is running , also the other day a fuse went under the dash board which wasn't charging the battery until I located and replaced with new fuse,
Then everything was fine until a day later it started giving weak flow , there is no grit in the Jets , I really can't imagine there is grit in the hose ,
When I disconnect it from the hose the water runs okay, not as fast as it could , and the filter isn't full of water shouldn't it be full with a half ton sitting on top?
I feel if I put a new pump in it would fix the problem, I've been told that I have to just buy another tho and it's my risk if it doesn't fix the problem.


 

Ian Sheppard

  • Posts: 1227
Re: Full tank required to calibrate? Varistream
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2016, 03:34:26 pm »
Something else to check what is the battery voltage as displayed on the controller?  As you have a split relay does the flow improve with the engine on?

A possibility is the battery is a bit low. When under load from the pump volts would normally fall by 0.2 give or take. EG if starting volts are 12 with the pump off, Volts will drop to 11.8V give or take with the pump running. If you see a larger drop when the battery is under load say 1/2 or volt or more. The issue may be the battery.

Also  check if the fuse between the battery and split relay has blown or for any loose connections.

Low battery volts or significant volt loss due to a damaged loose connect would mean the pump may not have enough power and this could effect the flow
 
V16 Is Here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AhbZirSlpI&t=8s
Polarity Protect technology

Crystal-clear

  • Posts: 3029
Re: Full tank required to calibrate? Varistream
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2016, 04:04:39 pm »
I drive 2 hours a day easy cos of traffic, battery always showing over 12v , I think the weird stuff are , 1) the clicking sounds , and 2 the water lvl not filling the meshed filter section when I look through the glass as it try's to pump I see a bubble or 2 not major but slight,




Ian Sheppard

  • Posts: 1227
Re: Full tank required to calibrate? Varistream
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2016, 04:11:54 pm »
OK 12V starting voltage is ok. The clicking may be the relay dependant on where it was fitted.

The filter not filling and seeing occasional bubbles, could it be a leaking connector or even the filter allowing air in?
V16 Is Here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AhbZirSlpI&t=8s
Polarity Protect technology

Spruce

  • Posts: 8462
Re: Full tank required to calibrate? Varistream
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2016, 04:42:04 pm »
If you are driving then the battery voltage with the engine running must be higher than 12v.  It should be between 13.8v and 14.4v.

A fully charged battery should read at 12.8/12.9v.  This can only be tested when the battery is fully at rest for 4 hours to allow voltage to stabilise.

The clicking will be a 'relay' in the SCR which is cutting in and out. That doesn't sound right.  On some SCR there is an adjusting screw. Have you made an adjustments using that?

Ian has asked a good question. Does the pump run better when the engine is running?

IMHO driving around for 2 hours a day isn't sufficient to fully recharge your battery. If you take a little more out than you put back in then eventually you won't have anything left.
Success is 1% inspiration, 98% perspiration and 2% attention to detail!

The older I get, the better I was ;)

Don Kee

  • Posts: 4878
Re: Full tank required to calibrate? Varistream
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2016, 05:43:39 pm »
If you are driving then the battery voltage with the engine running must be higher than 12v.  It should be between 13.8v and 14.4v.

A fully charged battery should read at 12.8/12.9v.  This can only be tested when the battery is fully at rest for 4 hours to allow voltage to stabilise.

The clicking will be a 'relay' in the SCR which is cutting in and out. That doesn't sound right.  On some SCR there is an adjusting screw. Have you made an adjustments using that?

Ian has asked a good question. Does the pump run better when the engine is running?

IMHO driving around for 2 hours a day isn't sufficient to fully recharge your battery. If you take a little more out than you put back in then eventually you won't have anything left.

+1


Sounds to me like you have a low charged battery, and when you turn your flow down the pumps kicks back in as it needs less power for the lower flow

Check and see if the voltage reading jumps up when your van van is on (it might take a min before it jumps as the relay waits until the van baterry has sufficient power before sending charge to your leisure)
If it doesn't, your relay is dud

Bench charge your battery over night, see if it helps

Check both fuses on your relay (from van bat to relay, and from leisure bat to relay)

Sounds like you've used power, but a bit back in and done this over again to the point where you've taken more out then you've put back in

(I.e your relay trickle charges so it may put in 5amps/h, but your pumps may use 3-4amps/h each so your taking out 15 amps per pump over a 5 hour day but only putting 10 back in....over time you drain the battery)
Why don't you have a quick google before making stupid comments?

Crystal-clear

  • Posts: 3029
Re: Full tank required to calibrate? Varistream
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2016, 06:07:20 pm »
Right I've been out to van
I called Williamson pumps had a half hour convasation ,
He was almost adamant that there is nothing wrong with the pump and encouraged me to fuslt find more

He told me to turn pump on and see if I can get 5 litres of water in 60s which I did get that exactly
He told me your fualt finding ends there and so there is nothing wrong with the pump

The battery seems fine I turn engine on it goes to like 13.5 or something when running it shows 12.8 so I don't think it's that .

I disconnected the filer I thought that was going to be the problem catching air it wasn't ,

And still up to 100psi it stop starts
Down to 70 I get a workable flow but slow and annoying

He said I should look at the hose
Now at one point while the pressure was building I disconnected the main pipe to let the water flow and flow it does at 5p per min, and a lot of steam or sort of smoke came out of the hose reel and the main connector as if something in the hose has blocked it not allowing it to flow at high speed?and at max setting it just piles up pressure ?
But how where do I start its 6m microbore what end could it be?
If I'm on the right track ?
It can't be the switch as the water is going ?

Don Kee

  • Posts: 4878
Re: Full tank required to calibrate? Varistream
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2016, 06:18:51 pm »
Any chance you're using a stop flow hoselock jobbie to connect to your hosereel...?

Might be worth unreeling out all the hose on your reel, see if you've got a kink?

Maybe also be worth changing the connector at the end of your hose reel hose (that connects to your pole)

Hopefully just a dud connector...


(Also i'm pretty sure the pressure switch should be by passed with the controller you use, have you still got it wired in?)

I'd be surprised if somethings stuck in your hose, it'd have to have gone through filter, pump, hose and spindle to get stuck in your reel hose
Why don't you have a quick google before making stupid comments?

Ian Sheppard

  • Posts: 1227
Re: Full tank required to calibrate? Varistream
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2016, 06:35:34 pm »
Any chance you're using a stop flow hoselock jobbie to connect to your hosereel...?

Might be worth unreeling out all the hose on your reel, see if you've got a kink?

Maybe also be worth changing the connector at the end of your hose reel hose (that connects to your pole)

Hopefully just a dud connector...


(Also i'm pretty sure the pressure switch should be by passed with the controller you use, have you still got it wired in?)

I'd be surprised if somethings stuck in your hose, it'd have to have gone through filter, pump, hose and spindle to get stuck in your reel hose

The reel is a good place to start as Don suggests. You may find the hose is badly compressed or has a kink. Also worth checking the reel valve.
 
Also sounds as the scr us working as the battery volts junps up.
V16 Is Here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AhbZirSlpI&t=8s
Polarity Protect technology

Spruce

  • Posts: 8462
Re: Full tank required to calibrate? Varistream
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2016, 07:02:06 pm »
Right I've been out to van
I called Williamson pumps had a half hour convasation ,
He was almost adamant that there is nothing wrong with the pump and encouraged me to fuslt find more

He told me to turn pump on and see if I can get 5 litres of water in 60s which I did get that exactly
He told me your fualt finding ends there and so there is nothing wrong with the pump

The battery seems fine I turn engine on it goes to like 13.5 or something when running it shows 12.8 so I don't think it's that .

I disconnected the filer I thought that was going to be the problem catching air it wasn't ,

And still up to 100psi it stop starts
Down to 70 I get a workable flow but slow and annoying

He said I should look at the hose
Now at one point while the pressure was building I disconnected the main pipe to let the water flow and flow it does at 5p per min, and a lot of steam or sort of smoke came out of the hose reel and the main connector as if something in the hose has blocked it not allowing it to flow at high speed?and at max setting it just piles up pressure ?
But how where do I start its 6m microbore what end could it be?
If I'm on the right track ?
It can't be the switch as the water is going ?

First of all it sounds like you are getting flow and pressure confused.

Just because your controller has flow settings between 1 and 100 it isn't anything to do with pressure. It's flow rate that has been divided into 100 segments.  If you had no hose connected to the pump 100 should be pumping water out at 5 LPM. If you set it at 50 theoretically you should get around 2.5 LPM.

So you have calibrated the controller to work at 80. The flow should be continious at that FLOW but it will pulsate if you increased the FLOW to 100.

The higher the flow rate you want from the pump the higher its amp draw to achieve that. So lets use an example to illustrate.

Lets say your pump draws 4 amps at a flow of 60 and 5 amps at a flow of 80 and 6 amps at a flow of 90. You like a flow of 60. So when calibrating the controller you are setting the amp draw limit a little higher, say 5 amps. That will let you run at a flow of 60. But if you wanted to run at a flow of 70 then the controller will cut out as it will see the pump is drawing to much current for what you set it to do.

On another forum a poster posted this regarding microbore;

I understand it's going to restrict the flow, but when I went from 12mm I/d to 8mm I/d had no change what so ever. I drop another 2mm and this. 2mm surely can't make a difference?

Doug Atkinson posted this in reply

It does -------, makes at least 30% reduction in flow
 

Take a look at this;

http://www.flourmilling.co.uk/water.html

I realise its steel pipe but I see the flow rate difference between 6 or 8mm bore steel pipe is considerable. 6mm 0.022 as opposed to 0.056 liters per sec 8mm. So a 6mm tube will only allow fractionally less than 1/2 the volume of water at 4 bar. Our hose coiled up around a hose reel will probably reduce those figures a bit more.

Hot water will have a higher (or is it lower) viscosity (less dense) so will flow better through a smaller diamt hose. So most hot water users happily use microbore hose.


http://www.frca.co.uk/Documents/100308%20Physics%20of%20flowLR.pdf

Interesting read these 7 pages.

Look at the difference between Laminar flow and Turbulent flow. Once fluid in a tube reaches a certain speed it become turbulent. Once it becomes turbulent it requires 4 times the amount of pressure to double the flow rate. Fluid through hose coiled on hose reels won't be Laminar in flow but turbulent.

To calculate the area of a circle the formula is

A = π r2

A 6mm id hose is fractionally more than half the size of an 8mm hose.
A 3mm jet is a little more than twice the size of a 2mm jet.
A 1mm jet is about 1/4 of the size of a 2mm jet.

-

Success is 1% inspiration, 98% perspiration and 2% attention to detail!

The older I get, the better I was ;)

Ian Sheppard

  • Posts: 1227
Re: Full tank required to calibrate? Varistream
« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2016, 09:26:24 am »
Right I've been out to van
I called Williamson pumps had a half hour convasation ,
He was almost adamant that there is nothing wrong with the pump and encouraged me to fuslt find more

He told me to turn pump on and see if I can get 5 litres of water in 60s which I did get that exactly
He told me your fualt finding ends there and so there is nothing wrong with the pump

The battery seems fine I turn engine on it goes to like 13.5 or something when running it shows 12.8 so I don't think it's that .

I disconnected the filer I thought that was going to be the problem catching air it wasn't ,

And still up to 100psi it stop starts
Down to 70 I get a workable flow but slow and annoying

He said I should look at the hose
Now at one point while the pressure was building I disconnected the main pipe to let the water flow and flow it does at 5p per min, and a lot of steam or sort of smoke came out of the hose reel and the main connector as if something in the hose has blocked it not allowing it to flow at high speed?and at max setting it just piles up pressure ?
But how where do I start its 6m microbore what end could it be?
If I'm on the right track ?
It can't be the switch as the water is going ?

First of all it sounds like you are getting flow and pressure confused.

Just because your controller has flow settings between 1 and 100 it isn't anything to do with pressure. It's flow rate that has been divided into 100 segments.  If you had no hose connected to the pump 100 should be pumping water out at 5 LPM. If you set it at 50 theoretically you should get around 2.5 LPM.

So you have calibrated the controller to work at 80. The flow should be continious at that FLOW but it will pulsate if you increased the FLOW to 100.

The higher the flow rate you want from the pump the higher its amp draw to achieve that. So lets use an example to illustrate.

Lets say your pump draws 4 amps at a flow of 60 and 5 amps at a flow of 80 and 6 amps at a flow of 90. You like a flow of 60. So when calibrating the controller you are setting the amp draw limit a little higher, say 5 amps. That will let you run at a flow of 60. But if you wanted to run at a flow of 70 then the controller will cut out as it will see the pump is drawing to much current for what you set it to do.

On another forum a poster posted this regarding microbore;

I understand it's going to restrict the flow, but when I went from 12mm I/d to 8mm I/d had no change what so ever. I drop another 2mm and this. 2mm surely can't make a difference?

Doug Atkinson posted this in reply

It does -------, makes at least 30% reduction in flow
 

Take a look at this;

http://www.flourmilling.co.uk/water.html

I realise its steel pipe but I see the flow rate difference between 6 or 8mm bore steel pipe is considerable. 6mm 0.022 as opposed to 0.056 liters per sec 8mm. So a 6mm tube will only allow fractionally less than 1/2 the volume of water at 4 bar. Our hose coiled up around a hose reel will probably reduce those figures a bit more.

Hot water will have a higher (or is it lower) viscosity (less dense) so will flow better through a smaller diamt hose. So most hot water users happily use microbore hose.


http://www.frca.co.uk/Documents/100308%20Physics%20of%20flowLR.pdf

Interesting read these 7 pages.

Look at the difference between Laminar flow and Turbulent flow. Once fluid in a tube reaches a certain speed it become turbulent. Once it becomes turbulent it requires 4 times the amount of pressure to double the flow rate. Fluid through hose coiled on hose reels won't be Laminar in flow but turbulent.

To calculate the area of a circle the formula is

A = π r2

A 6mm id hose is fractionally more than half the size of an 8mm hose.
A 3mm jet is a little more than twice the size of a 2mm jet.
A 1mm jet is about 1/4 of the size of a 2mm jet.

-

Cracking answer re the flow and pressure Spruce, could not have put it better
V16 Is Here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AhbZirSlpI&t=8s
Polarity Protect technology

Crystal-clear

  • Posts: 3029
Re: Full tank required to calibrate? Varistream
« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2016, 10:24:23 am »
Thing is it doesn't want to calibrate I've calibrated before you set it to 65 and nothing comes out sometimes it does but it doesn't fix it, also on the higher setting it properly cuts out I know what you are talking about with the pressure setting I've had pumps in the past stop start but keeping a certain pressure when it's higher now it literally stops then starts eventually

How about all that smoke in the hose reel that came out I've never seen that before

Hopefully we can get to the bottom of it
Spruce always very informative and everyone else still so very helpful!

Crystal-clear

  • Posts: 3029
Re: Full tank required to calibrate? Varistream
« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2016, 12:43:08 pm »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcpsegKDt7w

I uploaded a video
There is an air sound coming from the connecting trolley area it also doesn't want to calibrate does the same thing
Maybe I should look at that connector ?

Crystal-clear

  • Posts: 3029
Re: Full tank required to calibrate? Varistream
« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2016, 04:11:13 pm »
bump
so i connected another another 2 reels to the pump
and here is what happened, one of them is 6mm mini bore, and it was worse it has the usual window cleaning stop connector for the pole, basically no water, connected to the other which is 8mm and not stop connector the water did flow but when i put my thumb over it i felt the water hitting my thumb loosing some sort of pressure hitting as if its air but is isnt cos it kept on doing it,