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Tadgh O Shea

Re: Efflorescence
« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2016, 08:21:49 pm »
Tadhg

So you're spoiling a whole forum because you want someone to admit, in effect, that your product is the best thing for cleaning Altro. Most people on here don't give a MODDED FOR LANGUAGE about Altro. If you don't stop hi-jacking other threads to pursue your agenda you should be banned, and I have complained to the mods.
Max,  you know full well this is not about me making out that one of our products is better or best when deep cleaning Altro, i have shared many times that there are many janitorial suppliers in the UK who can offer safer cleaning solutions over having to use harsh and aggressive cleaning chemicals based on sodium hydroxide when deep cleaning safety flooring, i also know many guys who find it a very lucrative earner as its easy work to carry out and there is plenty of it out there. So you saying that most people don't give a damn about cleaning it i wouldn't be so sure on that one.  Tadgh

Dan Wileman

  • Posts: 66
Re: Efflorescence
« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2016, 09:10:41 pm »
Tadgh - seriously man, this thread was about a vic floor. No one has mentioned Altro at all.  This thread has been sidetracked by you and only you I'm afraid.

Tadgh O Shea

Re: Efflorescence
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2016, 11:46:03 pm »
Tadgh - seriously man, this thread was about a vic floor. No one has mentioned Altro at all.  This thread has been sidetracked by you and only you I'm afraid.
Goodman yourself Dan, Kevin knows where i am coming from on this one.

maxcampbell

  • Posts: 256
Re: Efflorescence
« Reply #23 on: April 12, 2016, 07:57:39 am »
Goodman yourself Dan, Kevin knows where i am coming from on this one.

This forum is for the rest of us, who value it as a source of information & hearing of others' experience, especially about difficult and challenging floors, it is not a platform for you to get your own back on Kevin.

Tadgh O Shea

Re: Efflorescence
« Reply #24 on: April 12, 2016, 08:36:57 am »
Goodman yourself Dan, Kevin knows where i am coming from on this one.

This forum is for the rest of us, who value it as a source of information & hearing of others' experience, especially about difficult and challenging floors, it is not a platform for you to get your own back on Kevin.
Hi Max, just having a quick look before i leave on a trip to visit some clients, when i am back in a few days  and will be happy to share some more info and advice for you on what probably happened to the vic tiles. Tadgh

Tadgh O Shea

Re: Efflorescence
« Reply #25 on: April 14, 2016, 11:54:35 pm »
Okay guys here is my take on what may have caused the problem for Alex when deep cleaning the victorian tiles, as i am sure most of you are aware that high alkaline and especially very high alkaline based cleaning chemicals can leave behind alkaline salt residues after they have been left to dry out on the surface (if they are not neutralized with an adequate floor neutralizer) and are always easier seen when working in rooms where its very warm, again i am sure many of you will have seen for example if you leave an opened 5 liter container of any high alkaline based cleaner in a warm area after a while you will clearly see the salt residues building up around the container cap or if the alkaline cleaner drips down the side of the container and when you go to remove it after a few days you will clearly see the salt residues built up under the container,
Now its very important to neutralize porous victorian tiles especially after they have been deep cleaned with a high alkaline or a very high alkaline based cleaning chemical.
While we are on the subject of neutralizing its worth pointing out some facts as many people can be confused as to what is a floor neutralizer, for example some people are of the opinion that warm or hot water alone or even that a neutral floor cleaner will be adequate enough to neutralize porous victorian tiles after they have been deep cleaned with high alkaline based cleaners (and especially if the high alkaline or very high alkaline based cleaning chemical has been used at high strength for example at dilution ratios of 3 to 1 or even at 4 to 1) well none of the above will  neutralize  high alkaline cleaning chemicals.
This is one worth remembering  LEAVE NO RESIDUAL ALKALINITY   again i will repeat many cleaning chemicals are based on high alkaline ingredients, however more cleaning problems are created by alkaline residues than by any other factor within our industry.
So again its very important to neutralize porous tiles after they have been deep cleaned with high alkaline based cleaners using an adequate floor neutralizer and not warm or hot water or even neutral floor cleaners as these are all inadequate when it comes to floor neutralizers ( But i am sure with all the 100's of pounds guys are paying to attend hard floor cleaning courses they are being taught how to properly neutralize porous tiles which have been deep cleaned with high alkaline cleaners.)
So just to share its quite possible with the circumstances Alex came across in deep cleaning these very porous victorian tiles ( high alkaline/very high alkaline cleaner, heat, strength of dilution, not neutralizing with an adequate floor neutralizer to deal with the effects of alkaline salts which by the way are very corrosive just as a side note.)
Its also worth noting that even after an adequate floor neutralizer has been used to deal with the alkaline residues left behind you must also then again rinse the tiles and grout lines well after neutralizing with plenty of water especially if applying a sealer or floor finish afterwards so there won't be any reaction to the sealer or floor finish.
So it is quiet possible again that what was left behind on the victorian tiles after they had dried out was alkaline salt residues which can often be confused as efflorescence. (these alkaline salt residues can easily be removed with proper neutralizing solution and mop or floor scrubbing extraction pads.)
I think its worth to share again, using warm/hot water alone or even a neutral floor cleaner will not neutralize an alkaline substance. I have been on a hard floor cleaning course now for over 30 years which is still ongoing as i continue to learn every day and am happy to share some of the knowledge and experience which i have gained, and thanks to CIU this info can be had free of charge.
And as i don't suffer with an ego problem i would never try and hijack or look to take control on this section of the forum Max just in case you feel the need to warn the mods.  Tadgh

derek west

Re: Efflorescence
« Reply #26 on: April 15, 2016, 08:50:00 am »
Interesting post Tadgh, nice to see other opinions on here so we actually have options. 

JandS

  • Posts: 4265
Re: Efflorescence
« Reply #27 on: April 15, 2016, 09:11:30 am »
Tadgh

What would you suggest to neutralise the floor?
Impossible done straight away, miracles can take a little longer.

Tadgh O Shea

Re: Efflorescence
« Reply #28 on: April 15, 2016, 06:25:15 pm »
Tadgh

What would you suggest to neutralise the floor?
Hi JandS, when i used to use high alkaline based cleaning chemicals i would of used any mild acid usually citric acid based neutralizers or even some white vinegar which is based on acetic acid as both are effective to neutralize alkaline salts. Then after neutralizing the floor with a mild acid based solution i would give the floor a final going over with plenty of water, especially if applying any floor dressings afterwards.

derek west

Re: Efflorescence
« Reply #29 on: April 15, 2016, 06:31:45 pm »
Prochem do a range of neutralisers for hard floors so it makes sense, they say on the tub, for neutralising high alkaline strippers prior to sealing.
http://www.cleaningsystems.co.uk/product/130/prochem_prorinse

Tony Stewart

  • Posts: 320
Re: Efflorescence
« Reply #30 on: April 15, 2016, 08:11:23 pm »
Good post Tadgh
So if you use an alkaline cleaner for a Victorian Floor and use a truckmount to spin it off use an acidic rinse in the chemical feed to neutralise the effects of the stripper?

Got some of that Prorinse so will have a go at using that before I put the polish on a Karndean floor on Monday.
Starts at the bottom likes it and stays there

Tadgh O Shea

Re: Efflorescence
« Reply #31 on: April 15, 2016, 08:51:49 pm »
Good post Tadgh
So if you use an alkaline cleaner for a Victorian Floor and use a truckmount to spin it off use an acidic rinse in the chemical feed to neutralise the effects of the stripper?

Got some of that Prorinse so will have a go at using that before I put the polish on a Karndean floor on Monday.
Hi Tony, that should be fine just make sure to rinse off or mop the floor with water after you use the prorinse and leave to dry, so the surface is ready and properly prepared before  the polish application.

alex hynds

  • Posts: 74
Re: Efflorescence
« Reply #32 on: April 16, 2016, 03:18:46 pm »
Thanks for the advice everyone. The problem I had was efflorescence.  Dry brush on rotary and quick vac off.  Problem solved

Buckland

  • Posts: 414
Re: Efflorescence
« Reply #33 on: April 16, 2016, 05:01:26 pm »
I think Max made a very good point - I always dip into this section to see if there is anything I can learn as I have been planning to move beyond t n g and altro etc. and learn something about more specialised hard floor maintenance and restoration – this section is now effectively dying on its feet - I have been in the cc business for 15 years and have been lucky enough (plus worked bloody hard - ask my elbows!) to earn a decent living in a good area - there is more competition from cheapskate operators, economic migrants undercutting established operators and people with funny accents with RDs etc in carpets/uph now so I am looking to use my business skills that have served me well by picking up some more technical knowledge in hard floors. So this year I have decided this is an area I could do more work in if I had a bit more knowledge and confidence so I am booked to go on kevin's next course at Birmingham in May - when I first saw tadgh's posts I thought 'great an alternative view'  (always useful) but I must say it is now affecting this part of the forum because km does not comment as freely (or at all?) as he used to for one reason or another - now I am a simple man and I like to mull information over having read it several times and hopefully tuck it away for later use - that is no longer an option with new topics.
Also though I can see the eco-alternatives are important  and have a place and a big future when I look at tadgh's vids and products website (no shop?) they do to me seem to be offering advice on cleaning small areas and altro (which is not usually a problem) lots of things I don’t really want to get involved with - I personally don't see a lot of commercial potential in these mopping with frames and microfiber techniques - now that's just my impression and i'm sure tadgh has deep-cleaned using his specialised techniques, acres of commercial floors in Ireland or wherever using his own knowledge, chems and skills and I take nothing away from his undoubted knowledge but it seems the consensus over here and most operators are wedded to a fairly old school philosophy and presumably none of the chems sold in this sector are actually proscribed or against the law! I don’t really want to be scrubbing floors with a hand mop I want to have confidence that I am learning techniques and chems and routines using a rotary and not have to resort to a lot of hand mopping if I can help it. When I read what people say about km’s courses and see the stuff on his ebay shop and see the industry that has grown up around the production of hard floor strippers and seals etc I cannot help reaching the conclusion that FOR ME the easiest way to access a part of this market is to go down that proven, tested, well trodden road – boring maybe but safe for my business. Sorry tadgh don’t take offence this is just my humble, mis-informed opinion…
Buckland Carpet & Fabric Care :: 01590 688938
www.SteamCleanCarpetService.co.uk

Kev Martin

  • Posts: 6954
Re: Efflorescence
« Reply #34 on: April 16, 2016, 05:18:46 pm »
Thanks for the advice everyone. The problem I had was efflorescence.  Dry brush on rotary and quick vac off.  Problem solved

Alex

Just got back from BAUMA!  So judging from your post it came off as I hoped with just a dry brush and vac then? Have you sealed it as well?

Kev
"Natural Stone Restoration Specialists" Tel: 0121 773 9129
www.tilinglogistics.co.uk | www.marblelife.co.uk  http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Tiling-Logistics

Tadgh O Shea

Re: Efflorescence
« Reply #35 on: April 16, 2016, 06:20:28 pm »
I think Max made a very good point - I always dip into this section to see if there is anything I can learn as I have been planning to move beyond t n g and altro etc. and learn something about more specialised hard floor maintenance and restoration – this section is now effectively dying on its feet - I have been in the cc business for 15 years and have been lucky enough (plus worked bloody hard - ask my elbows!) to earn a decent living in a good area - there is more competition from cheapskate operators, economic migrants undercutting established operators and people with funny accents with RDs etc in carpets/uph now so I am looking to use my business skills that have served me well by picking up some more technical knowledge in hard floors. So this year I have decided this is an area I could do more work in if I had a bit more knowledge and confidence so I am booked to go on kevin's next course at Birmingham in May - when I first saw tadgh's posts I thought 'great an alternative view'  (always useful) but I must say it is now affecting this part of the forum because km does not comment as freely (or at all?) as he used to for one reason or another - now I am a simple man and I like to mull information over having read it several times and hopefully tuck it away for later use - that is no longer an option with new topics.
Also though I can see the eco-alternatives are important  and have a place and a big future when I look at tadgh's vids and products website (no shop?) they do to me seem to be offering advice on cleaning small areas and altro (which is not usually a problem) lots of things I don’t really want to get involved with - I personally don't see a lot of commercial potential in these mopping with frames and microfiber techniques - now that's just my impression and i'm sure tadgh has deep-cleaned using his specialised techniques, acres of commercial floors in Ireland or wherever using his own knowledge, chems and skills and I take nothing away from his undoubted knowledge but it seems the consensus over here and most operators are wedded to a fairly old school philosophy and presumably none of the chems sold in this sector are actually proscribed or against the law! I don’t really want to be scrubbing floors with a hand mop I want to have confidence that I am learning techniques and chems and routines using a rotary and not have to resort to a lot of hand mopping if I can help it. When I read what people say about km’s courses and see the stuff on his ebay shop and see the industry that has grown up around the production of hard floor strippers and seals etc I cannot help reaching the conclusion that FOR ME the easiest way to access a part of this market is to go down that proven, tested, well trodden road – boring maybe but safe for my business. Sorry tadgh don’t take offence this is just my humble, mis-informed opinion…
  Hi Buckland,  no offence taken there as i have said always happy to share my experience and knowledge, if some maybe benefit from it then that's great.  Tadgh

maxcampbell

  • Posts: 256
Re: Efflorescence
« Reply #36 on: April 16, 2016, 08:19:22 pm »
Buckland

Thanks very much, glad someone feels the same as me. For us the whole point of getting into hard floors was about getting job value up, and interest in the job, which means getting challenging jobs on - basically as high-end stone as you can persuade someone to let you have a go at.

It's exactly those sort of jobs that benefit from a forum, contributed to by people who's main interest is stone.

Tadgd, we've all seen your mops - if I can be bothered, I'll probably get one in case someone wants me to do some Altro, we get it, we won't use  aggressive sodium hydroxide based, blah blah, blah...

Tadgh O Shea

Re: Efflorescence
« Reply #37 on: April 16, 2016, 08:36:57 pm »
Buckland

Thanks very much, glad someone feels the same as me. For us the whole point of getting into hard floors was about getting job value up, and interest in the job, which means getting challenging jobs on - basically as high-end stone as you can persuade someone to let you have a go at.

It's exactly those sort of jobs that benefit from a forum, contributed to by people who's main interest is stone.

Tadgd, we've all seen your mops - if I can be bothered, I'll probably get one in case someone wants me to do some Altro, we get it, we won't use  aggressive sodium hydroxide based, blah blah, blah...
  Hi Max, this section of CIU covers Hard floor cleaning on wood,stone,tiled,vinyl,laminate,concrete surfaces, If you only want to know about high end stone as you put it maybe you should look at other stone forums, as i am sure there are plenty of other members on here who are interested in learning about all the different types of floor surfaces which this section covers.  Tadgh

Tadgh O Shea

Re: Efflorescence
« Reply #38 on: April 16, 2016, 11:42:55 pm »
Thanks for the advice everyone. The problem I had was efflorescence.  Dry brush on rotary and quick vac off.  Problem solved
Hi Alex, you have shared that the porous victorian tiles were really soaking up all the high alkaline floor cleaner, just to share with you and to err on the side of caution, whether it was alkaline salt residues or efflorescence that showed up on the tiled surface once it had dried out, using a dry brush on a rotary and a quick vac is still not going to be adequate enough in neutralizing those tiles and grout lines.
You said that ye are going to seal the floor next week so i presume ye will mop the floor beforehand to clean off any soils, its worth noting that once water is applied to those tiles and grout lines it will reactivate the alkaline solution that will still of been left behind in the substrate of the tiles and grout lines. So it may be worth your while to neutralize the floor as previously mentioned and then afterwards give it a good rinse with plenty of water and leave to dry before you apply any sealer, that way you can be sure the tiles and grout lines are ready to take the sealer without having to encounter any future adverse reactions, and again to share i have come across many guys over the years who have had to completely redo hard floor deep cleaning and sealing jobs because they were not proficient enough or had not passed through the proper training courses on how to carryout these type jobs efficiently in the first place.  Tadgh

Kev Martin

  • Posts: 6954
Re: Efflorescence
« Reply #39 on: April 17, 2016, 07:30:41 am »
 Hi Buckland,  no offence taken there as i have said always happy to share my experience and knowledge, if some maybe benefit from it then that's great.  Tadgh
[/quote]

Tadgh,

I promised I would not reply to you at all in the future but as you seem unable to conceed I will make another exception!

I have deep cleaned, repaired, relaid, restored and sealed literally 1000's of Victorian and Edwardian Floors and Geometric Tiles with no issues or problems that I have not been able to deal with.  I have written articles on the subject and I am an advisor to probably one of the largest manufacturers of modern encaustic tiles today!  So much so, they asked me to write their care and maintenance instructions.

So in comparison, how much REAL HANDS ON experience Do You Actually Have regarding the cleaning, restoring and sealing of Victorian & Edwardian Encaustic Tiles and Geometrics?   I am looking here for Real Experience of Real Floors not the odd metre here or there!

The answer I suspect is "very little"  or you would have realised from the onset that the REAL PROBLEM here was lack of experience from Alex in realising where he had gone wrong!  He stated that the efflorescence was patchy and anyone who knows their onions regarding efflorescence would realise immediately that due to the FACT that Victorian & Edwardian Tiles have a very low porosity  % rate that it was in fact the substrate that had absorbed the water / cleaning solution through the grout joints not the tiles which in turn had allowed the Efflorescence to manifest itself which is why I told him to use a dry brush and just vac it off.

Strangely enough as I have said before I respect the fact that there are SOMETIMES more eco  friendly methods of cleaning and they have a place in some situations especially smaller projects and for the likes of softer flooring but in general for Commercial Heavy Duty Cleaning especially of larger areas involving Tile & Natural Stone I believe my methods are more suitable than yours. Therefore I re-iterate that cleaning these type of floors with correctly diluted Alkaline Cleaners coupled with honing powder if required using a Mono Rotary Machine and a wet vacuum in SMALL SECTIONS at a time is the correct way to do it and the way I will continue to teach on our courses.

Just in case you want to continue the conversation insisting you are right, which incidentally I will not reply to. I suggest you read the extract of an article I have pasted below:  This was written by Peter Thompson who has been cleaning and restoring Victorian Floors for over 25 Years and oversaw the restoration of the V & A Museum Floors.  Or is he wrong as well?
 
The main clean should use an intensive alkali based cleaner specifically tailored for unglazed tiled floors – there are several different makes on the market. Note that these are normally diluted with water, and start off with the lowest concentration specified. If necessary, the strength of the solution can be increased. Such cleaning agents work better if a low speed scrubbing machine with a plastic scrubbing pad is used, but hand pads work well – it’s just more strenuous. Work with a hand pad will be needed if there are dished tiles that the machine pads cannot get into. Clean relatively small areas at a time and when each area has been well scrubbed, rinse several times with clean water and mop as dry as possible. Once the whole floor has been treated, do it all over again. Throughout this process it is most important to monitor the cleaning solutions and rinsing water. Change them frequently as they as get dirty.

Acid cleaning solutions can be useful, especially where cement based levelling compounds have left residue on the surface of tiles. Only use acids where there is no danger of damage to the fabric or finishes of the building. Again only use small quantities and in the weakest possible solutions. Remove acid solutions as quickly as possible, rinse with water and then clean the area again with an alkali based solution to neutralise the acid.

Once the floor is clean, it must be sealed.
"Natural Stone Restoration Specialists" Tel: 0121 773 9129
www.tilinglogistics.co.uk | www.marblelife.co.uk  http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Tiling-Logistics