[Soupy]

I wonder, has anybody actually been taken to court over this nonsense and if so what have they actually been done for ?
Surely its not illegal to clean windows in Scotland unless you charge, so here's an idea call yourself a door cleaner and offer to
clean the windows for free for all your door cleaning customers.
Doesn't matter if your charging the same to clean two doors as the shiner up the road is charging for the windows as long as the
customer is alright with the cost. lol.

I can categorically confirm that you can be arrested, tried and convicted of the offence.

[Edge Clean]

Off hand I can't remember what the charge is, but it is something to do with the civic government Scotland act 1982.

Yes window cleaners have been taken to court, in various area in Scotland. I know in Dumfries & Galloway at least 4 were prosecuted and fined £200/£250, they all later gave up window cleaning.

Doug Atkinson and myself had great success with Dumfries & Galloway council in getting licenses enforced, in 2002 when licensing was introduced in the region, there was only 2 window cleaners licensed that includes me, by 2012, when I left the area there were 154 licensed window cleaners, we didn't get rid of all the unlicensed window cleaners, but we got down to around 25 unlicensed of which most were employees of national companies or cross border window cleaners coming into Scotland, who were a bit harder for the authorities to catch as they were only in area for few jobs then back across border again. A few were caught though and given the choice stay out or apply for license.

When I moved to area prices were worse than what I was getting in my previous area, (Fife), by the time I left area in 2012 and returned to Fife my prices down there were 50% higher than they are here now in Fife.

Better pricing down there wasn't exclusive to me, many of the lower priced window cleaners upped prices and we all ended on similar prices.

[Edge Clean]

The sad thing is that councils in Scotland that have licensing do not wish for it to be abolished, so we have no choice but to take on the councils to get a fairer system in place and for enforcement to be carried out, with 26 out of the 32 councils licensing window cleaners, we need more Doug Atkinsons and Tam Kay's to get involved and help us get the system improved.

It would be great if window cleaners South of the border gave us a bit of encouragement and support in our uphill battle instead of running the licensing system down, we all know it is a well flawed system, but we are stuck with it, we can only fight for change.

Thanks

[SeanK]

I wonder, has anybody actually been taken to court over this nonsense and if so what have they actually been done for ?
Surely its not illegal to clean windows in Scotland unless you charge, so here's an idea call yourself a door cleaner and offer to
clean the windows for free for all your door cleaning customers.
Doesn't matter if your charging the same to clean two doors as the shiner up the road is charging for the windows as long as the
customer is alright with the cost. lol.

I can categorically confirm that you can be arrested, tried and convicted of the offence.

Yes but what is the offence ? example, there are a couple of gardeners in my area who do the odd bit of window cleaning for their
customers now as they are not window cleaners surely they don't need a licence and if they charge it all to ground maintenance
then what can they be done for ?

[Edge Clean]

I wonder, has anybody actually been taken to court over this nonsense and if so what have they actually been done for ?
Surely its not illegal to clean windows in Scotland unless you charge, so here's an idea call yourself a door cleaner and offer to
clean the windows for free for all your door cleaning customers.
Doesn't matter if your charging the same to clean two doors as the shiner up the road is charging for the windows as long as the
customer is alright with the cost. lol.

I can categorically confirm that you can be arrested, tried and convicted of the offence.

Yes but what is the offence ? example, there are a couple of gardeners in my area who do the odd bit of window cleaning for their
customers now as they are not window cleaners surely they don't need a licence and if they charge it all to ground maintenance
then what can they be done for ?

Sean, this is an issue we have with licensing, some councils say that if cleaning the windows is part of a bigger job, an example the councils put to us, is a contractor does the cleaning of the windows of a supermarket as part of his or her job, the bigger part of the job being the cleaning of the store, then they do not need a license. However if they have a dedicated window cleaning team that moves from store to store then yes they do need a license, so I guess the same would apply to the gardener or painter who clean the windows after the main job is done.

[Edge Clean]

Tam i lost yer number that day ye called.

Joe I will get my number to you over the weekend.

[ChumBucket]

The sad thing is that councils in Scotland that have licensing do not wish for it to be abolished, so we have no choice but to take on the councils to get a fairer system in place and for enforcement to be carried out, with 26 out of the 32 councils licensing window cleaners, we need more Doug Atkinsons and Tam Kay's to get involved and help us get the system improved.

It would be great if window cleaners South of the border gave us a bit of encouragement and support in our uphill battle instead of running the licensing system down, we all know it is a well flawed system, but we are stuck with it, we can only fight for change.

Thanks

Are you kidding?  I remember how great this whole thing was gonna be, now you ARE stuck with it. It was the likes of the people mentioned who got you into this mess to begin with- make your bed, lie in it an' all that.

[Soupy]

I wonder, has anybody actually been taken to court over this nonsense and if so what have they actually been done for ?
Surely its not illegal to clean windows in Scotland unless you charge, so here's an idea call yourself a door cleaner and offer to
clean the windows for free for all your door cleaning customers.
Doesn't matter if your charging the same to clean two doors as the shiner up the road is charging for the windows as long as the
customer is alright with the cost. lol.

I can categorically confirm that you can be arrested, tried and convicted of the offence.

Yes but what is the offence ? example, there are a couple of gardeners in my area who do the odd bit of window cleaning for their
customers now as they are not window cleaners surely they don't need a licence and if they charge it all to ground maintenance
then what can they be done for ?

The offence is cleaning windows without a licence contrary to the civic government (Scotland) act 1982.

The byelaw (as with most byelaws I'd imagine) is poorly worded and could be twisted to suit by a decent solicitor. Most window cleaners operating without a licence aren't going to have access to a decent solicitor though.

As far as I'm concerned that's besides the point. The conviction and punishment are insignificant compared to the loss of earnings while issues with applications are sorted out. Say I interview someone for a job and decide to employ them, it's at least 28 days (sometimes 3 months) before they can legally clean windows, it's pretty dumb. The point isn't 'how illegal is it' or 'how can I get around it', the point for me is to get it working properly so that it can do what it was intended to do: minimise the dole monkeys, working for beer tokens and help professionalise the industry.

Your gardener friend wouldn't need a licence (in Aberdeenshire, I can't really comment on other areas) to clean the windows at a job where window cleaning was not the main activity.

[andyM]

If I was in Jockland I wouldn't pay it on principle!
The principle being that it's immoral to expect someone to pay a Tax in order to be able to earn a living.
Totally out of order in my opinion.

[SeanK]

That was my thinking on the matter Soupy, its just a poll tax on honest window cleaners and totally useless against guys
who aren't afraid to play the system.
I feel there's something very wrong and corrupt about this and cant believe that its Scotland we are talking about and not
China or similar.
You can manufacture fit and repair a window but need a licence if you want to clean it, you couldn't make that up.

[Soupy]

That was my thinking on the matter Soupy, its just a poll tax on honest window cleaners and totally useless against guys
who aren't afraid to play the system.
I feel there's something very wrong and corrupt about this and cant believe that its Scotland we are talking about and not
China or similar.
You can manufacture fit and repair a window but need a licence if you want to clean it, you couldn't make that up.

I don't really think it's corruption, more like incompetence on a national scale. I've been to a few licence hearings at the council and when you account for everyone's time to decide on the licence for that 1 person being heard; it'd take 100 years before they broke even.

[ChumBucket]

It was "window cleaners" that wanted the licensing if I remember correctly? Didn't "they" have to hound the councils to bring it in to begin with?

It reminds me of the whole "water tank in van" situation. It was never an issue for insurance companies until window cleaners themselves advised the insurance companies it was!

Window cleaners should stick to window cleaning IMO!

[Soupy]

It was "window cleaners" that wanted the licensing if I remember correctly? Didn't "they" have to hound the councils to bring it in to begin with?

It reminds me of the whole "water tank in van" situation. It was never an issue for insurance companies until window cleaners themselves advised the insurance companies it was!

Window cleaners should stick to window cleaning IMO!

Maybe it was. It certainly wasn't me though, I'd only have been 2 so hadn't quite mastered the squeegee yet.

[SeanK]

That was my thinking on the matter Soupy, its just a poll tax on honest window cleaners and totally useless against guys
who aren't afraid to play the system.
I feel there's something very wrong and corrupt about this and cant believe that its Scotland we are talking about and not
China or similar.
You can manufacture fit and repair a window but need a licence if you want to clean it, you couldn't make that up.

I don't really think it's corruption, more like incompetence on a national scale. I've been to a few licence hearings at the council and when you account for everyone's time to decide on the licence for that 1 person being heard; it'd take 100 years before they broke even.

Don't be fooled Soupy its corruption through and through, from the crafty shiners who wanted this introduced to make it
harder for the guy next door to head out with a ladder and bucket and compete with their businesses to that team of licence
deciders who are all making a nice living by making the process as long and hard as possible and keeping themselves in work.

[Soupy]

I'm unsure of the origins to be honest, you may well be right. I doubt it though. The problem doesn't lie with the man with a ladder and a bucket, like I said, the punishment is insignificant compared to loss of earnings during the application process. One man bands just get going while the application process is underway. You can't really do that if you are a larger company employing people and trying to do right by them.

I believe the really big boys don't even bother, they probably just budget for the fine if it ever arises. I've interviewed lads who've worked for nationals, when I've asked if they have a window cleaning licence they just gave me a puzzled look.

It's me in the middle that suffers.

I lost out a big schools contract to a national, none of their window cleaners were licenced to clean windows in Aberdeenshire yet here they were on council property, cleaning windows.

You really couldn't make it up.

[G Griffin]

It reminds me of the whole "water tank in van" situation. It was never an issue for insurance companies until window cleaners themselves advised the insurance companies it was!

I'm sure it was.
And aren't window cleaners allowed to change their minds about licences?

[Edge Clean]

I wrote a long winded reply to previous posts but I have some how lost it and can't be bothered rewriting it.

But some points we're

Window cleaners did not fight to get licensing introduced, this came into effect as the police, councils and scottish assembly wanted to clean up several trades associated with criminal activities, the ice cream wars in the 70s prompted this action.

As said window cleaners didn't ask for licensing so don't go blaming the modern day window cleaners for trying to improve a corruptish setup, that we work with. I'm sure if we had a vote on whether to keep or abolish licensing, the abolish vote would win, but to take on the councils and Holyrood would cost tens maybe hundreds of thousands of £s, can you see window cleaners up her chipping in to a fighting fund for abolishing licensing? Won't happen. So it's easier and cheaper to fight for improvements and fairness, like we are doing just now.

[ChumBucket]

 I remember Doug Atkinson (among others) actively seeking it and plenty of windys chipping in that it would be a good thing?

[Edge Clean]

I remember Doug Atkinson (among others) actively seeking it and plenty of windys chipping in that it would be a good thing?

Councils have been licensing window cleaners since 1982 , long before Doug, myself and others started window cleaning businesses. We are not responsible for window cleaning licenses being introduced.

The Scottish licensed window cleaners network (SLWCN) which Doug, myself and others formed, was set up in 2006, to actively seek improvements and fairness in the licensing system.

[ChumBucket]

I remember Doug Atkinson (among others) actively seeking it and plenty of windys chipping in that it would be a good thing?

Councils have been licensing window cleaners since 1982 , long before Doug, myself and others started window cleaning businesses. We are not responsible for window cleaning licenses being introduced.

The Scottish licensed window cleaners network (SLWCN) which Doug, myself and others formed, was set up in 2006, to actively seek improvements and fairness in the licensing system.

That's what I'm thinking of, I take it you've not got very far with it then?