[Rich Wilts]

Spot on.

Might be an idea to reassess your technique if it's spotting.

[SeanK]

When I go back to my customers after a month, I wonder whether they have employed another window cleaner after iv been to clean them properly, I can't understand how they are so clean after a month and I only use pure 

Maybe like Vision the pure is turning the glass into self cleaning.

The other thing iv noticed is that some hydrophobic glass has now gone hydrophilic! now is that just coincidence that vision does that too? or does pure do something to glass on its own over time? 🤔

That's the thing in wfp its way to easy to see something that's only in your head, a different brush cleaning better
just because a few bird poo's where easier removed on that particular day and so on.
I have had people approach me asking if I was the guy who cleaned the windows with the stuff that makes the windows shinier,
I always say yes why not but know I could get them every bit as shiny and clean using traditional methods.
Put it this way if some muppet canvassed my area using Vision as a sales pitch like most on here I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

[Dave Willis]

It is possible that it's working the other way round. Adding a detergent may actually be removing MORE from the glass so that the perceived extra shine most users seem to be getting is from cleaner glass rather than depositing a film.
I once shone a torch through a window that had been cleaned hours earlier with pure water - the results were pretty poor.

[SeanK]

It is possible that it's working the other way round. Adding a detergent may actually be removing MORE from the glass so that the perceived extra shine most users seem to be getting is from cleaner glass rather than depositing a film.
I once shone a torch through a window that had been cleaned hours earlier with pure water - the results were pretty poor.

Remove more of what ? glass even shines when dirty, I was cleaning properties this week that hadn't been cleaned in 12 weeks
and from the road side they where gleaming, ( panic I thought they had replaced me ) its only when I got up close that I noticed
how bad they really where, come on Dave switch your common sense button back on.

[SeanK]

The only way to add shine to a sun/ weather damaged frames is to remove the damaged material by either polishing it off or
coating over it.
So if additives are leaving a better shine then they are either turning the water into a rubbing/ polishing compound or leaving a coating.
This is simple stuff and shouldn't be fooling guys who do this for a living.

[jk999]

I have cleaned window s 31 years now 16 of those trad , cleaning with pure only is fine but a lot of times I still felt as though are they cleaning properly until kempy introduced me to vision now I don't think it's a miracle solution but I do feel it helps clean windows better. The main thing I like is the bubbles because I feel like I'm cleaning with soapy water and my windows still come up spot free and for what it costs me a think it's nothing. I'm quite an intelligent person so I am not having the wool pulled over my eyes, have you guys that's slagging the product off tried vision

[Rich Wilts]

I once shone a torch through a window that had been cleaned hours earlier with pure water - the results were pretty poor.

You have OCD!

[jk999]

I once shone a torch through a window that had been cleaned hours earlier with pure water - the results were pretty poor.

You have OCD!

lol

[CleanClear]

Not a bad post Carl, but using a chemical cleaner on a first clean or a conservatory roof is a lot different to what these guys are talking about which is adding 1 or 2ml of it to 100 litres of water.
It wouldn't have enough of the chemical to make any difference.

Sean you seem so certain over your views that these additives make no difference, have you tried any of them ?

I'm no scientist so i've no idea what the additives are actually doing. But so far from my own few days with it i can tell you it "feels" better. I was intrigued by how such a small amount of additive can create bubbles, and what do bubbles mean ? I googled it.............

in the same way when you add soap to the water molecules, it reduces the surface tension of the water molecules, their tight grasp on each other becomes slippery, allows the surface to stretch into a bubble

Looks to me like what they're doing is breaking down the tension in the water. What does that mean in practical terms ?  I've no idea. But it might explain why it seems to many to feel "smooth" .

I am going to be interested to see how it goes on problem windows, and some glass that usually beads. I think that'll be interesting.

[Dave Willis]

I once shone a torch through a window that had been cleaned hours earlier with pure water - the results were pretty poor.

You have OCD!

Quite possibly   
But this is brought on by my belief that in all the years I've been cleaning I've never thought pure water is particularly good. It's  ok but not that good. I just have higher standards than most. 

[Matt.]

What ever kempy puts in his bottles works, I don't measure it I just give a little squirt. On occasions I have put a little to much in ( in my opinion ) but I just connect up and fill the van as am working to dilute it back again.
I think what ever additive is used as long as it's in or about the right amount it will help with cleaning and not leave and residue behind, as it's diluted to the level it is.
Am not sure how many tank fulls I get out of a bottle but at the price it is, it's worth having a bottle for when it's needed.
Some one else may come along in a few weeks and say 1 x 5ml spoon of fairy liquid is perfect dilution rate for 500L tank, of pure and don't leave no residue behind,  or Dave will finally crack what's in vision and post it, then we can all buy it for 50p or whatever it is.

What ever additive anyone is using, be it at the correct levels to not leave anything behind definatley helps

I have been using virosol to clean really dirty glass, am finding that the virosol isn't getting it up good enough in certain parts so we have gone back to the supplier and are now using there heavy duty degreaser which is really fantastic. It's giving us the gliding feeling that vision gives and is really cutting into the ground in dirt.
Sometimes it's just a case of finding what works.

[SeanK]

Not a bad post Carl, but using a chemical cleaner on a first clean or a conservatory roof is a lot different to what these guys are talking about which is adding 1 or 2ml of it to 100 litres of water.
It wouldn't have enough of the chemical to make any difference.

Sean you seem so certain over your views that these additives make no difference, have you tried any of them ?

I'm no scientist so i've no idea what the additives are actually doing. But so far from my own few days with it i can tell you it "feels" better. I was intrigued by how such a small amount of additive can create bubbles, and what do bubbles mean ? I googled it.............

in the same way when you add soap to the water molecules, it reduces the surface tension of the water molecules, their tight grasp on each other becomes slippery, allows the surface to stretch into a bubble

Looks to me like what they're doing is breaking down the tension in the water. What does that mean in practical terms ?  I've no idea. But it might explain why it seems to many to feel "smooth" .

I am going to be interested to see how it goes on problem windows, and some glass that usually beads. I think that'll be interesting.

CleanClear well at least you have now cleared up why your trying this, I have never tried HG window cleaner as an additive but have tried a number of different products such as Vision GG4 and a few others for the same reasons you have give ( problem windows )
I actually used the chemicals in my trolley so was able to compare them with pure in my van side by side, to be honest I didn't get a lot of bubbles from any off them more like the bubbles you would get on the glass if you had cleaned them using a traditional
method before then going over them with pure.
I didn't get any difference in the results when comparing them to pure on its own the problem windows still gave the same
problems and still needed the same amount of faffing about to achieve a decent result.
Believe me mate if there was something out there that would help me with problem openers I would be singing its praises from
the rooftops as it certainly would make a massive difference in my work life.

[SeanK]

Another thing to remember is at this time of the year the water is a lot more gloopy because its colder so I certainly
find that a lot of the problem openers don't cause as mush of a problem as you would get in the warmer months.
Its one of the reasons why I would by very reluctant to use hot.

[Smurf]

Another thing to remember is at this time of the year the water is a lot more gloopy because its colder so I certainly
find that a lot of the problem openers don't cause as mush of a problem as you would get in the warmer months.
Its one of the reasons why I would by very reluctant to use hot.

I can't see the logic in that myself as I've found warm/hot purified water works well in any temp .

[SeanK]

Another thing to remember is at this time of the year the water is a lot more gloopy because its colder so I certainly
find that a lot of the problem openers don't cause as mush of a problem as you would get in the warmer months.
Its one of the reasons why I would by very reluctant to use hot.

I can't see the logic in that myself as I've found warm/hot purified water works well in any temp .

Its nothing to do with hot water not being able to clean, its to do with problem windows that cause dirty water to leak out
after you leave, they don't seem to do it as much in the colder weather.
I put it down to the water being more gloopy so it doesn't accumulate as much inside the frame plus the frame being colder
would make it tighter and more waterproof.
I had very little faffing about to do this week with problem frames compared to cleaning the same frames in the warmer
months, nothing has changed other than the temperature.

[Jonny 87]

Interesting thread.

I have used RO/DI cold water Pure Freedom system since starting in 2009. I've never added anything to the tank, nor would I.
I use TFR (Evan's TSR 100 or 200) on green uPVC and most first cleans, and G101 on fly sh*t (the only thing i've found  that does the job) in either hand-sprayers or from a trolley, depending on size of job. The TFR is necessary to soften the algae and ground in dirt on first-cleans, but unnecessary on any future cleans, if regular.

I weighed up moving to hot - and couldn't justify the set up and running costs for the additional speed it would undoubtedly give me mainly on first cleans only.

I saw an improvement in ease of clean (not necessarily speed) when Gardiners brought out the dual trim Supalite - it moved across the glass easier than the single trim, so was easier on the arms and shoulders.

Additives. Necessary, nay essential, for bad first cleans and connies (unless you want to be there for double the time); totally unnecessary imho on most regular maintenance cleans. I use TFR on my van to soften road film and rinse with tap water.  However most windows are not the same as my van which like yours is sprayed directly with all sorts of horrid stuff, unless by a busy road with spray when I accept an additive might help  if added in sufficient volume to the water.

I do wonder if guys are rinsing with water with an additive whether the residue (of which there must be some) will form a microscopic, slightly sticky layer on the glass to which dirt dust and pollen will stick more readily (look at the top of your Fairy bottle). This alone would stop me from using any additive in my tank.

Finally, ppm versus ppb debate a while back, i'll say this. If a window is totally clear at say 004 or 005 ppm (it is, i've tested it on several occasions by accident     )why would it be necessary to move to a ppb system?

To be fair on vision I've actually found with the latest version windows stay cleaner for longer. Rain water seem to wash the windows clean which is strange.

The dirt from all these storms made my windows filthy, but last night we had heavy rain and my windows are actually pretty clean. Someone could say they have washed them and id believe it.

So vision definitely doesn't leave a sticky residue on the glass that attracts dirt. I've been using vision in one form or another for about 4 years now and I can categorically say that's not the case.

Now come on guys do posts like this not show you what sort of numpties these guys are.

Care to elaborate? Most will agree with me. Vision keeps windows cleaner for longer.

Remember I have no connection to vision anymore, it's just David kemp.

So if by "guys" you mean the hundreds of people buying vision (99% of which are happy) then who is the real "numpty"?

 

[Dave Willis]

The same numpty that thinks thick water stops dripping?

[SeanK]

Interesting thread.

I have used RO/DI cold water Pure Freedom system since starting in 2009. I've never added anything to the tank, nor would I.
I use TFR (Evan's TSR 100 or 200) on green uPVC and most first cleans, and G101 on fly sh*t (the only thing i've found  that does the job) in either hand-sprayers or from a trolley, depending on size of job. The TFR is necessary to soften the algae and ground in dirt on first-cleans, but unnecessary on any future cleans, if regular.

I weighed up moving to hot - and couldn't justify the set up and running costs for the additional speed it would undoubtedly give me mainly on first cleans only.

I saw an improvement in ease of clean (not necessarily speed) when Gardiners brought out the dual trim Supalite - it moved across the glass easier than the single trim, so was easier on the arms and shoulders.

Additives. Necessary, nay essential, for bad first cleans and connies (unless you want to be there for double the time); totally unnecessary imho on most regular maintenance cleans. I use TFR on my van to soften road film and rinse with tap water.  However most windows are not the same as my van which like yours is sprayed directly with all sorts of horrid stuff, unless by a busy road with spray when I accept an additive might help  if added in sufficient volume to the water.

I do wonder if guys are rinsing with water with an additive whether the residue (of which there must be some) will form a microscopic, slightly sticky layer on the glass to which dirt dust and pollen will stick more readily (look at the top of your Fairy bottle). This alone would stop me from using any additive in my tank.

Finally, ppm versus ppb debate a while back, i'll say this. If a window is totally clear at say 004 or 005 ppm (it is, i've tested it on several occasions by accident     )why would it be necessary to move to a ppb system?

To be fair on vision I've actually found with the latest version windows stay cleaner for longer. Rain water seem to wash the windows clean which is strange.

The dirt from all these storms made my windows filthy, but last night we had heavy rain and my windows are actually pretty clean. Someone could say they have washed them and id believe it.

So vision definitely doesn't leave a sticky residue on the glass that attracts dirt. I've been using vision in one form or another for about 4 years now and I can categorically say that's not the case.

Now come on guys do posts like this not show you what sort of numpties these guys are.

Care to elaborate? Most will agree with me. Vision keeps windows cleaner for longer.

Remember I have no connection to vision anymore, it's just David kemp.

So if by "guys" you mean the hundreds of people buying vision (99% of which are happy) then who is the real "numpty"?

 

I'm just thankful its in the hundreds I would hate to think the majority of shiners would be that stupid.
There are hundreds of happy Chinese people who will pay £80 a pop for a bottle of UK air, just because they are happy doesn't
take away the fact that they're numpties.

[SeanK]

The same numpty that thinks thick water stops dripping?

Was it not the additive guys who said it makes the water more gloopy thus causing less runs.

[Carl2009]

On an aside, I can't find a safety data sheet for Vision on the Jigsaw site. I would have thought one was required. Or have I got that wrong?