[SeanK]

Just to be clear Dave are you saying that cleaning your windows with an additive will cause them to stay cleaner
longer ?

[Jonny 87]

On an aside, I can't find a safety data sheet for Vision on the Jigsaw site. I would have thought one was required. Or have I got that wrong?

Kempy has a full professional msds and cosh safety sheet. It's on the website. If you can't find it, just drop him an email and he will send it.

[Dave Willis]

ftp://

Just to be clear Dave are you saying that cleaning your windows with an additive will cause them to stay cleaner
longer ?

Nope, don't think I said that. I said it's possible an additive may be cleaning more dirt from the glass than pure alone. I do admit that some of this weeks work looked remarkably clean though considering the storms we've had. Someone else mentioned that too.
As much as I really wanted to knock Vision (I really did) I can't find a negative to it, maybe it's not good for aquatic life but there again I doubt fish like fairy much either. It could be a bit pricey I suppose but it's presented in a very professional manner well packaged, proper label and all. The results I find are the same as many others are finding.

[SeanK]

ftp://

Just to be clear Dave are you saying that cleaning your windows with an additive will cause them to stay cleaner
longer ?

Nope, don't think I said that. I said it's possible an additive may be cleaning more dirt from the glass than pure alone. I do admit that some of this weeks work looked remarkably clean though considering the storms we've had. Someone else mentioned that too.
As much as I really wanted to knock Vision (I really did) I can't find a negative to it, maybe it's not good for aquatic life but there again I doubt fish like fairy much either. It could be a bit pricey I suppose but it's presented in a very professional manner well packaged, proper label and all. The results I find are the same as many others are finding.

No somebody else actually stated that it keeps the windows cleaner for longer, so I ask you would you consider somebody
who would come out with a statement like that to be someone who has a clue what they're talking about ?
Just to be clear its guys who make statements like this that I consider to be numpties not every person who uses additives.

[Rich Wilts]

Unprovable claims - 'numpty' is a fair description.

Unprovable to me being, keeps windows cleaner for longer, makes glass shine brighter, makes you able to work quicker, makes cleaning easier, makes water run off the glass quicker.

You'll note all the words used to make these claims are in fact subjective. Brighter - brighter than what? Quicker - quicker than what? They're unprovable statements. They cannot be proven either way. Positively or negatively.

I've been using GG4 at a rate of 5ml per 100 litres for the past month. I makes cleaning, as a whole, a more pleasurable and effective experience.  What I cannot abide though is someone making unfounded and unproven claims and then failing to prove them either way or backing down when repeatedly asked to offer up proof as to the accuracy of their claims. To me Vision and any other micro diluted 'cleaning agent' work by breaking down the surface tension.

[kevincoggan]

an intresting thread this,i've enjoyed reading all the posts sean k you crack me up lol
a year ago-yes just a year this topic was all 100% negative with everyone saying additives whatever they were  are simply not needed-we were all buffoons i think dave willis said that,-i was expected the witchunters at the door with burning torches ready to nail me to the nearest tree or drown us three in the nearest river charged as witches such was the negativity surrounding additives,
now the tide seems to be changing,of course they are not for everyone-some simply don't understand or are so stuck in the past they'll never change,but if they are happy without useing additives then its not a big thing is it? no point trying to push your views on a subject you have very little experience of

[dave f]

why would you want windows to stay cleaner longer

[kempy]

GG4 90% water , great to buy this stuff

Gloopy - what's this word ?

Chinese Air ??

SeanK and others , I have regular said that not all persons will like vision  and that's just common sense .
SeanK , why not just accept that vision is selling ok and some persons like using it .
The Msds analyst passed the product and approved its claims . The claims are only standard claims and not like saying it will make our lass look 21 years young again 
Etc .

I would like to really argue etc with you SeanK , but it's good banter , comical  and it's harmless

[Jonny 87]

Unprovable claims - 'numpty' is a fair description.

Unprovable to me being, keeps windows cleaner for longer, makes glass shine brighter, makes you able to work quicker, makes cleaning easier, makes water run off the glass quicker.

You'll note all the words used to make these claims are in fact subjective. Brighter - brighter than what? Quicker - quicker than what? They're unprovable statements. They cannot be proven either way. Positively or negatively.

I've been using GG4 at a rate of 5ml per 100 litres for the past month. I makes cleaning, as a whole, a more pleasurable and effective experience.  What I cannot abide though is someone making unfounded and unproven claims and then failing to prove them either way or backing down when repeatedly asked to offer up proof as to the accuracy of their claims. To me Vision and any other micro diluted 'cleaning agent' work by breaking down the surface tension.

Unprovable claims? What exactly is it your after?

Kempy has the patience of a Saint dealing with you guys. (By guys I mean you and Sean)

My wife always uses fairy liquid to wash the dishes (occasionally I help  ) but why does she use fairy? Can she prove to me it works better than lidls own? No not really. Could she achieve the same results with just hot water? Possibly? 

She uses it because she likes it better than other brands.

She uses it, she likes it, so she keeps using it.

its not a very good analogy but hopefully you can see the point.

When it comes to cleaning products it's hard to micro analyse and show in video or picture form (which i ASSume thats what you want) that it works.

If you like it..... Use it.

If you don't? ...... Don't. It's really that simple. The best results are the ones that you can see with your nose to the glass yourself. 

Just to clarify seank when I said hundreds of people using vision that are happy, I meant 100's per month. So yes even I can do the maths, that is thousands of window cleaners using vision.

But no you and quarter light are probably right. It's the other 99.9% who are wrong.

[kempy]

Where do we buy this UK air please

Go well with my vision sales , I may stock this and sell it !!!!!!!!

[SeanK]

Where do we buy this UK air please

Go well with my vision sales , I may stock this and sell it !!!!!!!!

Do you ever watch the news, Google selling air to China.

[SeanK]

GG4 90% water , great to buy this stuff

Gloopy - what's this word ?

Chinese Air ??

SeanK and others , I have regular said that not all persons will like vision  and that's just common sense .
SeanK , why not just accept that vision is selling ok and some persons like using it .
The Msds analyst passed the product and approved its claims . The claims are only standard claims and not like saying it will make our lass look 21 years young again 
Etc .

I would like to really argue etc with you SeanK , but it's good banter , comical  and it's harmless

Kempy you cant argue for the simple reason you don't have a single solid fact to explain how your product works, the best
you have ever come up is well guys seem to like it.
Doesn't matter how many questions you get asked you never have an answer or an explanation other than the same old
put downs.
I pointed out earlier how and what makes a window frame go dull and what it takes to restore the shine, please tell me
what part of  what I said was wrong.
Its the same when anybody comes on with a genuine problem the additive users never step up to the mark and recommend
Vision as the solution.
At the end of the day I honestly don't care how many buy your product and don't believe for one minute that people aren't
so I don't know why you keep asking me to accept it, I also believe that it may be of help to some with confidence issues.

[Tadgh O Shea]

The only way to add shine to a sun/ weather damaged frames is to remove the damaged material by either polishing it off or
coating over it.
So if additives are leaving a better shine then they are either turning the water into a rubbing/ polishing compound or leaving a coating.
This is simple stuff and shouldn't be fooling guys who do this for a living.

  For example upvc frames have added as an additive during manufacture tio2 titanium dioxide which helps to protect them against damage from sun/weather, because of this some upvc window and door manufacturers will offer a 25 year guarantee on their oem products. these same manufacturers will also recommend that harsh and aggressive cleaning chemicals should not be used when cleaning these type surfaces. upvc when new is bright shiny and has a lovely sheen to it, i damaged a huge amount of these surfaces myself over many years until i realized how corrosive the ingredients were in the cleaning  chemicals i was using. my point being its safer all round to ask your supplier for cleaning chemicals which are non-caustic non-corrosive and safe for use on pvc/upvc surfaces and that won't affect their shine.

[Jonny 87]

GG4 90% water , great to buy this stuff

Gloopy - what's this word ?

Chinese Air ??

SeanK and others , I have regular said that not all persons will like vision  and that's just common sense .
SeanK , why not just accept that vision is selling ok and some persons like using it .
The Msds analyst passed the product and approved its claims . The claims are only standard claims and not like saying it will make our lass look 21 years young again 
Etc .

I would like to really argue etc with you SeanK , but it's good banter , comical  and it's harmless

Kempy you cant argue for the simple reason you don't have a single solid fact to explain how your product works, the best
you have ever come up is well guys seem to like it.
Doesn't matter how many questions you get asked you never have an answer or an explanation other than the same old
put downs.
I pointed out earlier how and what makes a window frame go dull and what it takes to restore the shine, please tell me
what part of  what I said was wrong.
Its the same when anybody comes on with a genuine problem the additive users never step up to the mark and recommend
Vision as the solution.
At the end of the day I honestly don't care how many buy your product and don't believe for one minute that people aren't
so I don't know why you keep asking me to accept it, I also believe that it may be of help to some with confidence issues.

I'm pretty sure that Kempy has never asked that of you.

Me, like many others just get frustrated with the fact that any vision thread that comes up you chime in with your two pennies worth.

Just like that annoying kid at school who thinks by shouting the loudest it makes him right. Your the same.

Have you tried vision neat on frames? It works very very well!

Something you don't seem to get is that added shine can be from a surface being cleaner.

Just like polishing a car, you are removing dirt which allows the light to refract and bounce back to your eye, making it give the impression of a shine. It's just light bouncing back.

So by a product helping to clean better..... Over time this adds a better, more natural shine.

Only my thoughts! But lots of others seem to be finding the same thing.

[paulben]

well said

[SeanK]

GG4 90% water , great to buy this stuff

Gloopy - what's this word ?

Chinese Air ??

SeanK and others , I have regular said that not all persons will like vision  and that's just common sense .
SeanK , why not just accept that vision is selling ok and some persons like using it .
The Msds analyst passed the product and approved its claims . The claims are only standard claims and not like saying it will make our lass look 21 years young again 
Etc .

I would like to really argue etc with you SeanK , but it's good banter , comical  and it's harmless

Kempy you cant argue for the simple reason you don't have a single solid fact to explain how your product works, the best
you have ever come up is well guys seem to like it.
Doesn't matter how many questions you get asked you never have an answer or an explanation other than the same old
put downs.
I pointed out earlier how and what makes a window frame go dull and what it takes to restore the shine, please tell me
what part of  what I said was wrong.
Its the same when anybody comes on with a genuine problem the additive users never step up to the mark and recommend
Vision as the solution.
At the end of the day I honestly don't care how many buy your product and don't believe for one minute that people aren't
so I don't know why you keep asking me to accept it, I also believe that it may be of help to some with confidence issues.

I'm pretty sure that Kempy has never asked that if you.    Look above.

Me, like many others just get frustrated with the fact that any vision thread that comes up you chime in with your two pennies worth.

Just like that annoying kid at school who thinks by shouting the loudest it makes him right. Your the same.

Have you tried vision neat on frames? It works very very well!

Something you don't seem to get is that added shine can be from a surface being cleaner.

Just like polishing a car, you are removing dirt which allows the light to refract and bounce back to your eye, making it give the impression of a shine. It's just light bouncing back.

So by a product helping to clean better..... Over time this adds a better, more natural shine.

Only my thoughts! But lots of others seem to be finding the same thing.

Total rubbish, removing dirt will reveal the shine under it but it wont make it shine any better, if the frame has been
dulled by the sun weather and harsh chemicals as Tadgh mentioned then you could deep clean it and the shine wont come back
or get any better, the same goes for car paintwork.
That's not an opinion its a fact.

[Dave Willis]

No ones told me yet how rinse aid makes glassware spotless and shiny - anyone know? Is it because it's squeaky clean or is it coated in something?

[Dave Willis]

http://www.rsc.org/learn-chemistry/resources/chemistry-in-your-cupboard/finish/13

Is this doing the same thing?

[SeanK]

No ones told me yet how rinse aid makes glassware spotless and shiny - anyone know? Is it because it's squeaky clean or is it coated in something?

The glass is clean, all the rinse aid does is reduce any spotting you will get the exact same shine if you wash the glass in water and dry it off properly with a cloth.
You don t even need it if your tap water is around 220ppm or under.

[Jonny 87]

GG4 90% water , great to buy this stuff

Gloopy - what's this word ?

Chinese Air ??

SeanK and others , I have regular said that not all persons will like vision  and that's just common sense .
SeanK , why not just accept that vision is selling ok and some persons like using it .
The Msds analyst passed the product and approved its claims . The claims are only standard claims and not like saying it will make our lass look 21 years young again 
Etc .

I would like to really argue etc with you SeanK , but it's good banter , comical  and it's harmless

Kempy you cant argue for the simple reason you don't have a single solid fact to explain how your product works, the best
you have ever come up is well guys seem to like it.
Doesn't matter how many questions you get asked you never have an answer or an explanation other than the same old
put downs.
I pointed out earlier how and what makes a window frame go dull and what it takes to restore the shine, please tell me
what part of  what I said was wrong.
Its the same when anybody comes on with a genuine problem the additive users never step up to the mark and recommend
Vision as the solution.
At the end of the day I honestly don't care how many buy your product and don't believe for one minute that people aren't
so I don't know why you keep asking me to accept it, I also believe that it may be of help to some with confidence issues.

I'm pretty sure that Kempy has never asked that if you.    Look above.

Me, like many others just get frustrated with the fact that any vision thread that comes up you chime in with your two pennies worth.

Just like that annoying kid at school who thinks by shouting the loudest it makes him right. Your the same.

Have you tried vision neat on frames? It works very very well!

Something you don't seem to get is that added shine can be from a surface being cleaner.

Just like polishing a car, you are removing dirt which allows the light to refract and bounce back to your eye, making it give the impression of a shine. It's just light bouncing back.

So by a product helping to clean better..... Over time this adds a better, more natural shine.

Only my thoughts! But lots of others seem to be finding the same thing.

Total rubbish, removing dirt will reveal the shine under it but it wont make it shine any better, if the frame has been
dulled by the sun weather and harsh chemicals as Tadgh mentioned then you could deep clean it and the shine wont come back
or get any better, the same goes for car paintwork.
That's not an opinion its a fact.

I agree with you in that particular instance.
Vision isn't a wonder cleaner that is going to repair a damaged unit, that goes without saying.

You are only quoting a particular circumstance and basing ALL your thoughts on that.

What about frames that are just a little bit ingrained with dirt? Or have those rubber seals that leach out black marks gradually?

If you manage to clean off that little extra bit of dirt, giving it a deeper clean, then you WILL reveal more of the natural shine. I believe this is the main power of using additives.

In my opinion ..........Giving that bit of extra ooooomf in cleaning power means a cleaner and in turn "shinier" window. This may not happen overnight, but regular and consistent use of vision has had this effect on my work.

Your entitled to your opinion but please don't state things as fact when you have no basis.

It wasn't too long ago you said all you need is extreme brushes, then you have now said after using supreme brushes you are finding them better for cleaning.   

Just agree to disagree and stop slating a product off that you have little to no knowledge of.