[Dave Willis]

No, it was the money.

[SeanK]

Gg4 dilution is 500 not 325 - just being helpful

Darran

Wont disagree Darran as it doesn't really make much of a difference to the final outcome if anything its worse, your now talking
about 250lts of pure with GG4 diluted to 500 times more than recommended and 350 litres with nothing but pure.

[Dave Willis]

Yes but, GG4 is designed for trad work with hard water so your dilution rates don't really apply. You could use loads of different products to get the same effect ie. break the surface tension down. The problem is finding one that doesn't spot.
GG4 seems to work ok but I got a slime in the tank eventually. Whatever is in Vision seems to add a little slip to the brush.

[kempy]

Gg4 is approx 90% water .
The other 10% I just don't know what it is .

I had one bottle of it and lost it somewhere as it was abysmal for my needs .

SeanK and Jonny , lol

I'm wordless to describe this SeanK fella anymore . His posts are just amazing and no need for me to interfere .
To be honest , I'm totally bored reading about it .

[Smudger]

Yes I agree but it's making him feel superior even tho he won't post any links...

Titan labs say themselves the gg4 is suspended in water so no big surprise or revelation their, it's what it does to the water that's the interesting bit,

To seank - the main problem with your argument is that several people have actually tried this and seen a difference I'd take practical results over theory anytime ( and that's based on dozens of real life experiences in engineering where some suit does not understand practical application ) where you let your self down is talking like the tank has a layer of vision/gg4 and the rest is pure, it's more blended than that, you get a consistant mix throughout the day, so even if your right, each window gets a blend of pure water and vision/gg4 empowered pure.

Darran

[Clever Forum Name]

Dave you interested in trying an off the shelf product?

I am awaiting delivery

Not if I'm the first 

Will email you when it arrives next week it's for glass

[SeanK]

Yes I agree but it's making him feel superior even tho he won't post any links...

Titan labs say themselves the gg4 is suspended in water so no big surprise or revelation their, it's what it does to the water that's the interesting bit,

To seank - the main problem with your argument is that several people have actually tried this and seen a difference I'd take practical results over theory anytime ( and that's based on dozens of real life experiences in engineering where some suit does not understand practical application ) where you let your self down is talking like the tank has a layer of vision/gg4 and the rest is pure, it's more blended than that, you get a consistant mix throughout the day, so even if your right, each window gets a blend of pure water and vision/gg4 empowered pure.

Darran

You don't need any links, if you have a product that has a 500 to 1 dilution ratio then it can only be diluted to 500 times above
its recommended level, it simple for every 1 molecule of water there are 500 molecules of GG4 per ml, so once you get to the
level of 1 molecule of GG4 to 1 ml of water you can dilute it no further.
This isn't rocket science Darran and I can certainly understand the Vision guys for at least pretending they don't get it and then
trying to rubbish it but you have no excuse.

[SeanK]

Yes but, GG4 is designed for trad work with hard water so your dilution rates don't really apply. You could use loads of different products to get the same effect ie. break the surface tension down. The problem is finding one that doesn't spot.
GG4 seems to work ok but I got a slime in the tank eventually. Whatever is in Vision seems to add a little slip to the brush.

Nonsense GG4 does spot as does Vision once you add more than zero parts per million, does that not tell you something.

[Rich Wilts]

Your not fooling anyone Sean.
The tide has turned. It's just you and Bateman. Mayb you should start a club.

 

It?

[Dave Willis]

Yes but, GG4 is designed for trad work with hard water so your dilution rates don't really apply. You could use loads of different products to get the same effect ie. break the surface tension down. The problem is finding one that doesn't spot.
GG4 seems to work ok but I got a slime in the tank eventually. Whatever is in Vision seems to add a little slip to the brush.

Nonsense GG4 does spot as does Vision once you add more than zero parts per million, does that not tell you something.

Well, pure water doesn't spot up to 30ppm according to some so additives could probably pushed to the same level except the foam would be overwhelming.
Interestingly, the GG4 people scrubbed glass with it on an applicator then hosed the glass down with tap water if I find the link I'll post it up.
Unfortunately we are window cleaners and not chemists so we only have a stab at fathoming it all out.

You still haven't explained why additives are changing the properties of pure water at such low dosages (I have) but you don't want to accept it.

Have you ever wondered how rinse aid works in a dishwasher at higher dosages and with water with a tds of 300?

[SeanK]

Yes but, GG4 is designed for trad work with hard water so your dilution rates don't really apply. You could use loads of different products to get the same effect ie. break the surface tension down. The problem is finding one that doesn't spot.
GG4 seems to work ok but I got a slime in the tank eventually. Whatever is in Vision seems to add a little slip to the brush.

Nonsense GG4 does spot as does Vision once you add more than zero parts per million, does that not tell you something.

Well, pure water doesn't spot up to 30ppm according to some so additives could probably pushed to the same level except the foam would be overwhelming.
Interestingly, the GG4 people scrubbed glass with it on an applicator then hosed the glass down with tap water if I find the link I'll post it up.
Unfortunately we are window cleaners and not chemists so we only have a stab at fathoming it all out.

You still haven't explained why additives are changing the properties of pure water at such low dosages (I have) but you don't want to accept it.

Have you ever wondered how rinse aid works in a dishwasher at higher dosages and with water with a tds of 300?

I have give my theory on why additives cause the water to bubble at such small doses obviously you didn't read it, at the
end of the day Dave that's all its doing, I'm not convinced it has anything to do with surface tension as this would be broken
down anyway by the action of both the pump and brush.
The TDS comment is more to do with showing how little of the solution is actually in the water than about causing
problems with spotting.

[Dave Willis]

You didn't answer my post.
Why do you think the water is aerating with an additive when it didn't before?
What makes bubbles? Read about it.
How can I float a metal paperclip in water but not when a drop of GG4 is added - think about it.

[AuRavelling79]

You didn't answer my post.
Why do you think the water is aerating with an additive when it didn't before?
What makes bubbles? Read about it.
How can I float a metal paperclip in water but not when a drop of GG4 is added - think about it.

Try this experiment to see whether surface tension of water is broken down at extremely low dilutions.

Fill your 650 L (absolutely detergent free) tank to the brim and let it settle. Now see if a paper clip can be added and floated on the surface. Note the TDS.

If it can then ...

Add 1 ml per 100 litres of your chosen "wonder cleaning solution" , drive round the block and let it settle.

See if the paper clip can float.

Any difference?

[Dave Willis]

Sorry, my arms aren't long enough to retrieve it!

I would imagine the higher the tds of water is generally the more tension you'll get. But add detergent or soap which also raises tds - surface tension will reduce.

Chuck a bottle of Vision in the dead sea and see what happens 

[Clever Forum Name]

Sorry, my arms aren't long enough to retrieve it!

I would imagine the higher the tds of water is generally the more tension you'll get. But add detergent or soap which also raises tds - surface tension will reduce.

Chuck a bottle of Vision in the dead sea and see what happens 

I tested that theory couple of weeks ago.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-35400884