[mac74]

Hello all, due to me just changing my lead acid leisure batts, for 2x 115ah yuasa's (rotated daily), ive started to wonder if using the split charge van relay is really worth it on compact work? Or at worst, could it damage the batteries memory and reduce its life span?  Meaning the stop/start 1-5min drives ect. plus say a 10min drive home, and the relay whacking in 10amps during these  engine on times, makes me think if its better 4 the battery to just let the pump/s drain it? and rotate it at the end of play? A shurflo 5.2l 100psi draws a max of 8amp (per hr?) labelled on the pump,  and i use the spring type v9 controller with it, so it probably drains say 5amp's per hr, bcos of less strain on the pump?  times that with say 4 hrs constant running through the day, would equal 20amp draw off the battery would'nt it? or have i got this wrong?  Any battery experts out there please help out. thanks m

[Spruce]

Lead acid batteries do not have memory issues like Nicad batteries do/did.

A lead acid battery will lose is capacity with sulfation. This is caused by leaving a battery in a state of discharge for a long period of time.

The way you are operating your battery charging regime is probably the best way of ensuring battery longevity.  However, the 110 amp battery is heavy to lug around each evening.
A fellow windie in town has been doing what you do for many years now. It works for him. However, he has found to his detriment on several occasions that he has forgotten to put his charged battery into the van the next morning and only discovered it when unpacking to start his first job. It usually happens when he is 20 miles from home.

I agree with your battery usage calculations - I feel that 4 hours running time a day (50%) at 5 amps current draw is a good guide to use on residential. But doing a big commercial job could mean that the pump is running for 80% of your working hours.

I'm in the same boat as you mileage wise but have only one battery. I'm in the fortunate position of being able to run an extension lead out to the van and charge the battery overnight as the van is parked on the driveway. (In winter I also plug in a heater, so tend to charge the battery every night during freezing spells.)

But I do have a split charge relay. To me its there should I need it. I've had 2 x 110 amp leisure batteries in the last 7 years and my 3rd one isn't a year old yet. On both occasions the original 2 batteries packed up without me realising it. So I got caught with my proverbial pants down.
Suddenly one day we found we didn't have enough capacity in the leisure battery to finish the job. Running the van engine was enough to give the battery a boost charge and supply both pumps with enough current so we could finish the job.

The split charge relay paid for itself on that job alone.

Unfortunately, that replacement battery failed 4 years later in much the same way and the SCR helped us out again.

Most of our work is local (with a 10 mile radius) so a SCR isn't much use to be honest.

So it depends how you look at it.

I not only fitted a SCR to my son's van when I fitted a tank into that, I also fitted a change over switch so he could switch over to the van's battery should he need to. He never needed to use that.

When my SIL was working with us he used to travel about 10 to 15 miles from and to home and he found that he didn't have to supplement the battery charge very often - probably once every couple of weeks. But on occasion his lax attitude meant his battery was flat several times so he couldn't do much work that day other than go home and charge his battery for the next day.

I have a volt/amp gauge fitted to my van so I monitor the charge rate of my leisure battery when the engine is running. It makes no difference if the engine is idling or 'revving' down the motorway as the charge rate is the same. I found the same with SIL's Transit Connect T220L. So his leisure battery benefited when he was stuck in traffic as a longer journey meant more charge.

Despite SIL battery neglect, its now 4 years old and still going strong, although I very much doubt that it will have the 85amph capacity it did when it was new. 

[mac74]

Ok spruce, you seem 2 know your stuff on it, so i suppose i will leave the split relay on as a boost up charge, seen as there is no memory effect on the battery? As like yourself it does come in handy if the batt has run low, and running the engine can be a get out of jail on the last job. Many thanks spruce 4 your in depth help. m

[dazmond]

i have one 75ah leisure battery and charge it up every night with a halfords smart charger.

i too run an extension lead to my  van to charge it.it takes 2 mins after purifying my water.

most of my work is within 6 miles with very little driving in between jobs.

i see no reason for a split charge relay as im happy with this set up.keep it simple mate.

[Spruce]

Ok spruce, you seem 2 know your stuff on it, so i suppose i will leave the split relay on as a boost up charge, seen as there is no memory effect on the battery? As like yourself it does come in handy if the batt has run low, and running the engine can be a get out of jail on the last job. Many thanks spruce 4 your in depth help. m

Leisure batteries do like to be kept fully charged.  They will last the longest if you don't draw them below 75 to 80% of charge and recharge them as soon as possible. You are doing that. They also work best when they don't get cold - not always possible with our application. Although the battery on my van is 'permanent' it is insulated from the floor with a thick piece of rubber, and the van is heated so frost free in the winter.

The local windie who also swaps his batteries over everyday has one leisure battery and one starter battery. The last starter battery lasted him 3 years and the leisure battery 3 1/2 years. I thought that was good as the batteries he had were cheap ones.

I emailed Numax a while back and they advised that its best to charge a leisure battery at no more than 10% of its capacity. So your 110 amp battery would mean 11 amps. As the battery gets more fully charged then the battery will only accept a lower and lower charge anyway. So there will be a time when your battery only accepts half an amp or less.

 A smart charger will then kick this into a float charge mode and pulse the battery with short 'spikes' to maintain it in a fully charged condition.

[Mike #1]

So Spruce  what if any is the benefit /purpose of maintenance or repair function(s) on a smart charger I have the newer Halfords smart charger .

Twice this past month I ran my battery flat to it cutting out . Thanks Mike

[Spruce]

So Spruce  what if any is the benefit /purpose of maintenance or repair function(s) on a smart charger I have the newer Halfords smart charger .

Twice this past month I ran my battery flat to it cutting out . Thanks Mike

One of the benefits of having a controller is that it will switch off when the battery under load registers around 10.3 to 10.5 volts. This is inbuilt to save any harm being done to the battery.

We found in the power tool industry that the damage was done to batteries when the operator stopped when the battery went flat, waited until the battery recovered and then tried again. This process was continued until the battery was dead and usually meant its demise.

Leisure batteries will allow themselves to be flattened, but they need to be recharged as soon as possible. Waiting for a flattened battery to recover and using it again is a recipe for 'killing' it. Sulphation occurs when the battery is discharged for a long period of time and generally a sulphated battery can't be revived. A leisure battery manufacturer will quote a number of discharge cycles a battery will tolerate.
But what some manufacturers call a discharge cycle may be totally different to what we would expect a discharge cycle to be. One needs to check the small print.

The intelligent charger we use is just for leisure battery use under the motorhome banner. Battery chargers sold by Halford's will have different battery charge settings for different types of batteries as they are universal chargers. A repair facility could work on certain types of batteries or when damage done is light.  I'm of the opinion that once a battery has 'failed' then it needs to be replaced - its our livelihood. You can waste so much time messing on with a battery that it will cost you dearly in the end.  If you haven't recharged your battery as often as you should have or its getting a bit long in the tooth, then it's cutting out twice this week could be a warning sign that it needs to be replaced. I would do that straight away. That's my opinion anyway.

The maintenance side of a charger is good as it is designed so a leisure battery can be monitored and kept fully charged over periods when the battery isn't used - eg over winter in a motorhome. So I wouldn't think twice about leaving my charger plugged into the van for a whole weekend.

Numax told me that they wouldn't warranty a leisure battery used in the window cleaning industry due to the abuse we give them.  We haven't had any issues with the 3 Numax's we have had/got. Mine lasted 4 years, SIL's has lasted 4 years and son's is 4 1/2 years old. The remaining 2 are still used but I doubt they have their 85 amph capacity any longer.

The motor home forums are a wealth of information with regarding to the use and recharging of leisure batteries. Most of their experiences can transferred across and relate to our industry.

 

[mac74]

I use the ctek mxs 5.0amp intel charger, around £60, and this goes through the charging stages and you can leave it on as long as you wish as it monitors the batt when full,  it also has a recondition program on it. I would recommend this charger to all. thanks m

[Pete Thompson]

I have a split charge relay for my leisure battery, and it works perfectly.

I've never bothered to charge it from the mains.

Never had a problem for over 3 years.

However, I do live in a rural area, so there is always at least 30 minutes of driving (at about 50mph) before I even arrive at the first job.  I'm sure that has helped.

[Dave Willis]

I'm still running off the second of a pair of batteries that came with my Toyota Hiace. They are at least six years old ad have never been bench charged. I wish someone could explain how I get away with it - I only drive two miles too. 

[Ian Sheppard]

So Spruce  what if any is the benefit /purpose of maintenance or repair function(s) on a smart charger I have the newer Halfords smart charger .

Twice this past month I ran my battery flat to it cutting out . Thanks Mike

Plus One well put and explained

One of the benefits of having a controller is that it will switch off when the battery under load registers around 10.3 to 10.5 volts. This is inbuilt to save any harm being done to the battery.

We found in the power tool industry that the damage was done to batteries when the operator stopped when the battery went flat, waited until the battery recovered and then tried again. This process was continued until the battery was dead and usually meant its demise.

Leisure batteries will allow themselves to be flattened, but they need to be recharged as soon as possible. Waiting for a flattened battery to recover and using it again is a recipe for 'killing' it. Sulphation occurs when the battery is discharged for a long period of time and generally a sulphated battery can't be revived. A leisure battery manufacturer will quote a number of discharge cycles a battery will tolerate.
But what some manufacturers call a discharge cycle may be totally different to what we would expect a discharge cycle to be. One needs to check the small print.

The intelligent charger we use is just for leisure battery use under the motorhome banner. Battery chargers sold by Halford's will have different battery charge settings for different types of batteries as they are universal chargers. A repair facility could work on certain types of batteries or when damage done is light.  I'm of the opinion that once a battery has 'failed' then it needs to be replaced - its our livelihood. You can waste so much time messing on with a battery that it will cost you dearly in the end.  If you haven't recharged your battery as often as you should have or its getting a bit long in the tooth, then it's cutting out twice this week could be a warning sign that it needs to be replaced. I would do that straight away. That's my opinion anyway.

The maintenance side of a charger is good as it is designed so a leisure battery can be monitored and kept fully charged over periods when the battery isn't used - eg over winter in a motorhome. So I wouldn't think twice about leaving my charger plugged into the van for a whole weekend.

Numax told me that they wouldn't warranty a leisure battery used in the window cleaning industry due to the abuse we give them.  We haven't had any issues with the 3 Numax's we have had/got. Mine lasted 4 years, SIL's has lasted 4 years and son's is 4 1/2 years old. The remaining 2 are still used but I doubt they have their 85 amph capacity any longer.

The motor home forums are a wealth of information with regarding to the use and recharging of leisure batteries. Most of their experiences can transferred across and relate to our industry.

[Walter Mitty]

A split charge relay is right for me.  Without it, I would have to remove the leisure battery regularly and carry it up steps to my flat for charging.  Charging in the van is impractical for me as I can't even be certain to be able to park in the same road as where I live.  I prefer not to run the system from the van battery in case I can't start the van.  Even when the leisure battery is older, I can manage with it by having my sandwich break in the van while the engine is running.   I do enough longer runs to keep it charged OK.

[Mike #1]

 Cheers for that Spruce , Due to been very busy and forgetful battery ran flat last Friday i shot home charged for 1 hour then ran the battery almost flat following day .

Then did a full charge over weekend and only ran the blighter flat today by 2 pm straight home and on charge until tomorrow .

[chez]

I use the ctek mxs 5.0amp intel charger, around £60, and this goes through the charging stages and you can leave it on as long as you wish as it monitors the batt when full,  it also has a recondition program on it. I would recommend this charger to all. thanks m

+1

I have a split relay wired from my main van battery to my leisure battery under the passenger seat. The leisure battery worked fine for about 11 months and never had to charge it. But then once it ran down and not even running the engine would charge it. So I bought a ctek charger with an excellent reconditioning setting and it revived the battery well. I try to give it a charge once a week, especially the night before I have a long day with 2 pumps all day. Others a good charge once a week is sufficient.
The ctek charger is excellent for £60 well worth the money.
Cheers Chez

[Spruce]

I use the ctek mxs 5.0amp intel charger, around £60, and this goes through the charging stages and you can leave it on as long as you wish as it monitors the batt when full,  it also has a recondition program on it. I would recommend this charger to all. thanks m

+1

I have a split relay wired from my main van battery to my leisure battery under the passenger seat. The leisure battery worked fine for about 11 months and never had to charge it. But then once it ran down and not even running the engine would charge it. So I bought a ctek charger with an excellent reconditioning setting and it revived the battery well. I try to give it a charge once a week, especially the night before I have a long day with 2 pumps all day. Others a good charge once a week is sufficient.
The ctek charger is excellent for £60 well worth the money.
Cheers Chez

There are two types of sulfation: reversible (or soft sulfation), and permanent (or hard sulfation). If a battery is serviced early, reversible sulfation can often be corrected by applying an overcharge to a fully charged battery in the form of a regulated current of about 15 and 16V on a 12V battery for about 24 hours. Increasing the battery temperature to 50–60°C further helps in dissolving the crystals.

Permanent sulfation sets in when the battery has been in a low state-of-charge for weeks or months. At this stage, no form of restoration is possible.

Battery charger manufacturers will overstate the pros and will understate the cons as they are in business to make money convincing us that their product is the perfect solution. If they were the full solution then the battery manufacturers would be out of business as no one would need a replacement battery.

[chez]

I use the ctek mxs 5.0amp intel charger, around £60, and this goes through the charging stages and you can leave it on as long as you wish as it monitors the batt when full,  it also has a recondition program on it. I would recommend this charger to all. thanks m

+1

I have a split relay wired from my main van battery to my leisure battery under the passenger seat. The leisure battery worked fine for about 11 months and never had to charge it. But then once it ran down and not even running the engine would charge it. So I bought a ctek charger with an excellent reconditioning setting and it revived the battery well. I try to give it a charge once a week, especially the night before I have a long day with 2 pumps all day. Others a good charge once a week is sufficient.
The ctek charger is excellent for £60 well worth the money.
Cheers Chez

There are two types of sulfation: reversible (or soft sulfation), and permanent (or hard sulfation). If a battery is serviced early, reversible sulfation can often be corrected by applying an overcharge to a fully charged battery in the form of a regulated current of about 15 and 16V on a 12V battery for about 24 hours. Increasing the battery temperature to 50–60°C further helps in dissolving the crystals.

Permanent sulfation sets in when the battery has been in a low state-of-charge for weeks or months. At this stage, no form of restoration is possible.

Battery charger manufacturers will overstate the pros and will understate the cons as they are in business to make money convincing us that their product is the perfect solution. If they were the full solution then the battery manufacturers would be out of business as no one would need a replacement battery.

Interesting science!! So from your comments it would seem the battery was in pretty good condition through those 11 months which is great as my setup must be good 👍😎
On a practical level, I thought I was going to have to buy a new battery but since using the ctek everything is fine and no battery probs. Hope it continues!