[SteveAllan]

Dont make dwell time an issue anyway. The time you have presprayed and agitated it, the time setting up your porty is ample dwell. Good on light/med soiling, mingers get something stronger down though 

[Radek Jablonski]

Tadgh, carpet is not same as flat surface. On the other channel you will hear that, that you need dwel time, so users of mpower says that.

SteveAllan, what you say will work but not for full houses, you dont spray an agitate all carpets as not only impossible by techical reason but also prespray will dry.

[Tadgh O Shea]

Tadgh, carpet is not same as flat surface. On the other channel you will hear that, that you need dwel time, so users of mpower says that.

SteveAllan, what you say will work but not for full houses, you dont spray an agitate all carpets as not only impossible by techical reason but also prespray will dry.

Hi Radek, micelles can't differenciate  between fibers or flat surfaces they just go straight to work and do what they are supposed to break down soils safely and effectively.

[john martin]

Tadgh , you are back to calling it micelles and colloids without addressing the question i put to you regarding the fact that all detergent surfactants produce micelles and colloids.

I would have more respect for you if you just answered like this  . 

"John ,  i dont really understand the chemistry involved and i couldnt be arsed to spend time researching it .
Im really only here to sell this plant detergent to the Brits .
Carpet cleaning ?  ....  which products give the best results ?  I couldnt care less about any of that Shiitte .
Tadgh "

[SteveAllan]

Works fine on whole houses Rad, just a different working order. Didn't mention spraying whole house.

[Radek Jablonski]

Of course, but on the surface they much easier to reach dirt while on the fabric they need a time for it and aggitation.

And yes, they need much more time to take action comparing to other products.

Every product has its own place, I also have it as handy and cheap somethimes but using it on every day task shows that the user has been indoctrinated by the seller lol

[Tadgh O Shea]

Tadgh , you are back to calling it micelles and colloids without addressing the question i put to you regarding the fact that all detergent surfactants produce micelles and colloids.

I would have more respect for you if you just answered like this  . 

"John ,  i dont really understand the chemistry involved and i couldnt be arsed to spend time researching it .
Im really only here to sell this plant detergent to the Brits .
Carpet cleaning ?  ....  which products give the best results ?  I couldnt care less about any of that Shiitte .
Tadgh "

  John, i have said many a time on here that i don't have a background in chemistry, i am not looking for respect from anyone, i have been using colloidal chemistry now for 13 years and it has never left me down, unlike the traditional harsh and aggressive chemical cleaners which i had been using for many years previous and did cause me plenty of grief on many occasions, but thats all in the past now i have found a more effective technology which i know will be huge in our industry, but i will always stand behind colloidal chemistry as i said it had never left me down.

[john martin]

But tadgh , you make sweeping statements regarding  what products are toxic or non toxic  ,  harmfull to surfaces or not  , old technology or new technology .
Only someone with a background or knowledge in chemistry would be in a position to advise others on these subjests .

It dosnt take a background in chemistry to look up the point i was making about colloids and micelles not being exclusive to your plant detergent but is relevent to any detergent surfactant.
Just any quick google on the subject explains it .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_micelle_concentration
http://www.surface-tension.org/news/58.html

[Doug Holloway]

Hi Guys

Worth remembering that pH is a logarithmic scale which means that pH 10 is 10 times more  alkaline than pH 9.

Also many detergents are buffered, that is they have a chemical which keeps them at their optimum pH but makes it much more difficult to neutralise.

Basically putting a bit of highish pH acid in your tank is not going to make much difference and is unlikely to neutralise the alkaline pre spray.

It is far better to thoroughly rinse out the pre spray and not have any detergent or 'microsplitter' in the rinse.

Also worth remembering that microsplitter is a made up non scientific word.

As a newbie experiment with  different products from different suppliers bearing in mind that the higher the pH the better the likely cleaning but the more chance of colour run or fibre damage in the case of wool. So basically clean with the lowest pH which gives a good result but remember customers want clean carpets not a lot of technical mumbo jumbo!

There is an awful lot of pseudo science in this industry and you need to be able to see the wood from the trees.

Cheers

Doug

[Tadgh O Shea]

But tadgh , you make sweeping statements regarding  what products are toxic or non toxic  ,  harmfull to surfaces or not  , old technology or new technology .
Only someone with a background or knowledge in chemistry would be in a position to advise others on these subjests .

It dosnt take a background in chemistry to look up the point i was making about colloids and micelles not being exclusive to your plant detergent but is relevent to any detergent surfactant.
Just any quick google on the subject explains it .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_micelle_concentration
http://www.surface-tension.org/news/58.html

John, i think you are just acting stupid now, only someone with a background or knowledge in chemistry would be in a position to advise others on the harmful effects of toxic and aggressive cleaning chemicals, that is the biggest load of crap i have heard in a longtime, just goes to show what some people do and don't know about the cleaning industry.

[Mike Halliday]

What's the problem with the name microsplitters? Look at 'ultimate master' sounds like a Dutch domamatrix  not a cleaning chemical,

Plus to agree with Doug, removing a prepray is alway preferable to neutralising it.

[john martin]

But tadgh , you make sweeping statements regarding  what products are toxic or non toxic  ,  harmfull to surfaces or not  , old technology or new technology .
Only someone with a background or knowledge in chemistry would be in a position to advise others on these subjests .

It dosnt take a background in chemistry to look up the point i was making about colloids and micelles not being exclusive to your plant detergent but is relevent to any detergent surfactant.
Just any quick google on the subject explains it .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_micelle_concentration
http://www.surface-tension.org/news/58.html

John, i think you are just acting stupid now, only someone with a background or knowledge in chemistry would be in a position to advise others on the harmful effects of toxic and aggressive cleaning chemicals, that is the biggest load of crap i have heard in a longtime, just goes to show what some people do and don't know about the cleaning industry.

terms like harmfull , toxic , aggressive need to be defined properly , i remember u saying one of your tests for a products toxicity is to spray it into the air and see if it stings your eyes  etc  lol  ,  try that with pepper , vinegar and a host of everyday  products and they would be on your toxic ban list also   .

[Tadgh O Shea]

But tadgh , you make sweeping statements regarding  what products are toxic or non toxic  ,  harmfull to surfaces or not  , old technology or new technology .
Only someone with a background or knowledge in chemistry would be in a position to advise others on these subjests .

It dosnt take a background in chemistry to look up the point i was making about colloids and micelles not being exclusive to your plant detergent but is relevent to any detergent surfactant.
Just any quick google on the subject explains it .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_micelle_concentration
http://www.surface-tension.org/news/58.html

John, i think you are just acting stupid now, only someone with a background or knowledge in chemistry would be in a position to advise others on the harmful effects of toxic and aggressive cleaning chemicals, that is the biggest load of crap i have heard in a longtime, just goes to show what some people do and don't know about the cleaning industry.

terms like harmfull , toxic , aggressive need to be defined properly , i remember u saying one of your tests for a products toxicity is to spray it into the air and see if it stings your eyes  etc  lol  ,  try that with pepper , vinegar and a host of everyday  products and they would be on your toxic ban list also   .

Yes John i do have a ban list of ingredients which i prefer not to use, vinegar would be one of them along with the likes of sodium metasilicate,sodium hydroxide,sodium hypochlorite, and many others. Happy cleaning Tadgh

[Tony Stewart]

Adam
When I started I was like you. Went on a course and listened and then got all confused. Then tried different presprays for this and rinses for that and then came to the conclusion that different carpet cleaners swear by their own products and because they have faith in them , and thus make them work.
I have tried different portables with heat, without heat and then had different carpets to clean with different spills on them and then got confused even more. Then one carpet cleaner says this acid rinse is cheaper than the other better known brand and you start off again. Then put a truckmount into the equation with a hydroforce and your head will spin.

So go to Alltec and take John's advice and get some citrus prespray and some ultimate master and take the citrus fabric prespray for your upholstery and then use that ultimate master as a rinse agent. That will cover you for nearly all that you will come up against. The fabric prespray will also shift draught marks and if you get a real minger you mix a stronger solution of the citrus prespray........simples. That way you keep one suppliers products in the clean and it's simple again.
The rest of it is navel gazing, all very interesting but diverts you from the original question.
I would take Simon's advice too Powerbust with Prochem's acid rinse or final phase would do in many situations.
If you still want to try different options then you can come and have a look in my garage as I have bottle, tins and cans of microsplitters and powders and ointments all trying to get past their sell by dates!!!!

[neil 47]

It all depends what you are cleaning .

Most of the carpets l clean are 80/20 wool or that kind and I've been using Mpower on them with great success . I have 15 kg of shockwave I haven't touched in 7 to 8 months .
I also use f90 and find that great as is DFc range , I've used ms & um as well and they work well so the conclusion I've come they all work so it all boils down to how you work

Ie what heat you have what vac and how powerful you extraction is what Agitation .
personally I like change and try to use a different one every few months then you can speak from experience which is far better than another persons opinion .

[Stoots]

Cheers guys i think i have a better idea of what im trying to achieve now rather than what chemicals to use

so basically the closer i stay to ph7 the better in terms of safety
but a more aggresive alkaline can be used on higher traffic areas
making sure to rinse out as much s possible or at least try to neutrilise with an acid rinse or a self neutrilising chemical

i was advised to nearly always use an acid rinse in case the carpet was already alkaline from a previous clean negating the need to do a wet test.

basically acid rinse everything and use the least aggressive chemical pre spray required and i wont go far wrong

[Mike Halliday]

Always remember why you are there to get the carpet clean, the customer does'nt care about how safely you work they want a clean carpet, telling them......... "sorry I could'nt get your carpet clean but on the bright side I never went above Ph8" ....... will not go down well

You need to increase your knowledge as quickly as possible to allow you to use the correct chemical  to get the carpet clean

[Stoots]

yes i understand that mike, ive had no problem getting carpets clean up until now but doesnt hurt to try to be cautious, last thing i want to do is have to pay out for a new carpet etc. that would be a bugger 

[Simon Gerrard]

basically acid rinse everything and use the least aggressive chemical pre spray required and i wont go far wrong

You're right, if you take that approach you will not go far wrong. Until you find a pre-spray you like, try one of the above, we all have our favourites. What you are looking for in a pre-spray is good soil release, a process known as saponification, (turning soil into water soluble soap) from there on it makes precious little difference what rinse agent you use as it has almost zero effect on the  clean, so it might as well be an acidic rinse so that you leave the carpet on the safe side of the Ph scale.

Simon

[Dave_Lee]

Something else to think about with regards to detergent in the tank versus pre-spray with plain water rinse.
Is there any real difference worth bothering about?
Pre-sprays are more concentrated than detergents mixed in a tank full of water.
In other words it could well be that:-
Pre-Spray + Rinse Water = Detergent + Tank  Water.
Doug you are the chemist, what do you think?
Dave.