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slap bash

  • Posts: 1366
Ro membrane recycling
« on: August 28, 2015, 05:23:47 pm »
I cannot remeber who told us about this one but thanks I have just rejuvenated my R O membranes. What I di was pump some citric acid ( which is a cristle ) mixed with pure water through my ro I blocked off my di tube with a clamp so that product water coming through would have to go into a by pass tube which I use to test my R O  td
Before this I had a tds of 330 tds going into my R O and coming out at 075 TDS not good and membranes need replacing as this should be 10 % . After one flush of acid it came down to  043 tds. I think it will need another flush but this is a  good result costing 150p. I will tell more if I do a second flush. A result I would have thought.

Mike #1

  • Posts: 4668
Re: Ro membrane recycling
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2015, 06:56:11 am »
Cool  more details once you have the results i didnt change my pre-filters for ages water is currently been produced at 005ppm  windows are still spotless even in bright sun so will plod on for now .

Dave Willis

Re: Ro membrane recycling
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2015, 07:28:49 am »
So what's the main deposit in a membrane - calcium?
Could send a bottle of Killrock through and see what happens?

SeanK

Re: Ro membrane recycling
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2015, 07:41:14 am »
Maybe if the membrane wasn't looked after not flushed and so on this could work, but I was told the reason
membranes stop working is because the fine holes that's filter the water have started to break down so no longer
remove the dissolved solids or remove them as effectively.
Cant see how you could repair this.

Smudger

  • Posts: 13438
Re: Ro membrane recycling
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2015, 07:54:14 am »
Maybe if the membrane wasn't looked after not flushed and so on this could work, but I was told the reason
membranes stop working is because the fine holes that's filter the water have started to break down so no longer
remove the dissolved solids or remove them as effectively.
Cant see how you could repair this.

+1

Darran
Never argue with an idiot, they will only bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience

Alex Gardiner

  • Posts: 7742
Re: Ro membrane recycling
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2015, 09:07:32 am »
There are usually two main reasons that membranes stop performing correctly.

1. Calcification of the membrane due to deposits from hard water.

2. Break down of membrane structure. This can be from age or accelerated by chlorine damage.

If the reason is the second one then the only solution is a new membrane.

If it is due to calcification then it is possible to re condition the membrane.

We have a client who reconditions his with Killrock. He untapes the membrane unrolls it and soaks in Killrock before rolling back up and taping it up and refitting. He finds it works well. Never tried it myself.

slap bash

  • Posts: 1366
Re: Ro membrane recycling
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2015, 11:06:39 am »
I think its the second Alex as citric acid is all  Kilrock is an over priced product citric acid being the raw chemical. When you dilute it in water and force it through your membrane at pressure ( eg 4 bar) it will brake down the calcium build up. The water that proceeds this acid bath has a TDS of over 600  in my case.  I then flush it out until the tds remain constant.  Show that the calcium that is trapped in the membrane is there to stay. AS the acidic flush is lost its low acidic PH and is now  unable to remove and neutralize anymore calcium. What one needs to see is how long it will last.
This is quite a radical discovery thanks to who ever made us aware of it in the first place as I can save a hundred quid per year on membranes alone and with recycling my resin am saving a small fortune. 

slap bash

  • Posts: 1366
Re: Ro membrane recycling
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2015, 11:13:42 am »
Alex the reason I dont think its the chlorine damaging the membrane is because I have a pre filter removing the chlorine so leaving the second option as the only one to blame.

Dave Willis

Re: Ro membrane recycling
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2015, 01:02:59 pm »
I think I paid about £2.50 for the last bottle of Killrock. If you have a new set of membranes ready anyway then it's nothing to lose if it doesn't work.

I probably spend about £150 a year on resin and £100 on membranes maybe £40 on filters

Avo

  • Posts: 1634
Re: Ro membrane recycling
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2015, 01:12:19 pm »
I've used killrock twice now and both times its improved performance of a membrane 

Sean Rimmer

  • Posts: 4
Re: Ro membrane recycling
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2015, 08:30:14 pm »
Prevention is always better than a cure. If you install a water softener on your supply to the membrane, you will not get any calcium scale build up.    Likewise, if you install a bituminous coal filled carbon filter on your supply line, you will not get any chlorine (hypochlorous acid) damage either.  However, as with all water treatment equipment, you will need to periodically monitor that the softener is working correctly with a simple "YES/NO" hardness test kit, available on ebay and also that the carbon filter is working correctly with low range chlorine indicator papers, also available on ebay from many suppliers of test kits & reagents.
 A good water softener resin should give a minimum of 5 years performance depending on the hardness of your incoming water and any background containments e.g. dissolved Iron. Carbon filters need sufficient contact time to remove chlorine and have a finite life span, as the chlorine oxidises the carbon media in the filter which is the chemical mechanism of removal.

Avo

  • Posts: 1634
Re: Ro membrane recycling
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2015, 09:44:40 pm »
By the time you spent 5 years shelling out money to water softeners and various other equipment surely the money we save would buy another membrane what's the point..
Can you explain the running costs to this method please?

Sean Rimmer

  • Posts: 4
Re: Ro membrane recycling
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2015, 01:30:15 pm »
Hi Avo, running costs for water softeners will vary around the UK & dependant upon;
*How much water you need to generate each day
*How hard your water is (you can find this on your local water utility company web site)
*How cheaply you can acquire granular salt locally (or tablets/blocks)
*Where/from who you locate your water softener i.e. cost/efficiency etc.
My best advice to anyone who has hard water to convert to RO quality is to contact your local softener supplier. The manufacturer of the water softeners will tell you how much salt the machine will use during regeneration (washing the resin with brine water). Once you know this you can work out the Kilogram cost per month per annum etc. They will also tell you how much water can pass through the softener before it needs regeneration with salt/brine. This will depend on the softener resin capacity of the unit you buy i.e. bigger unit, more upfront capital cost.
As you can see, I cant provide definitive answers because of the variables involved. I've been in the water treatment industry for 28 years and have seen 40 inch RO membranes trashed in 4 months by hard water, so economically, as you point out, you have to make a commercial decision as to whether a softener will pay for itself.
As a general rule, if you have very soft water (e.g. Highlands Scotland/Some Parts Wales/Devon/Cornwall etc) a softener may well not pay itself back, however may save money in DI polishing resin. If you have very hard water, a softener will dramatically extend the membrane life/performance and consequently save money on DI resin.
I work primarily on Industrial RO systems and you will never find one without a softener and carbon pre-filtration. However, I do agree entirely  with your point that its only worth the expense of a water softener if it pays for itself.
Cheers Sean

martin hulstone

  • Posts: 323
Re: Ro membrane recycling
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2015, 05:43:40 pm »
Prevention is always better than a cure. If you install a water softener on your supply to the membrane, you will not get any calcium scale build up.    Likewise, if you install a bituminous coal filled carbon filter on your supply line, you will not get any chlorine (hypochlorous acid) damage either.  However, as with all water treatment equipment, you will need to periodically monitor that the softener is working correctly with a simple "YES/NO" hardness test kit, available on ebay and also that the carbon filter is working correctly with low range chlorine indicator papers, also available on ebay from many suppliers of test kits & reagents.
 A good water softener resin should give a minimum of 5 years performance depending on the hardness of your incoming water

 and any background containments e.g. dissolved Iron. Carbon filters need sufficient contact time to remove chlorine and have a finite life span, as the chlorine oxidises the carbon media in the filter which is the chemical mechanism of removal.
I reckon you would spend more on salt than the cost of a membrane if like me you produce 5000 litres a week and reject 10,000. Hell of a lot of salt needed?

Sean Rimmer

  • Posts: 4
Re: Ro membrane recycling
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2015, 06:20:08 pm »
Anyone can do the maths for themselves from the guidance below, just substitute your actual figures for the ones used here.
Calculating what size softener do I need and how much salt will it use ?
1 person uses about 140 litres of water per day
1 litre of softening resin can remove 50g hardness (CaCO3)
1 litre of resin requires 140g salt for regeneration
1 Kg of salt uses just under 3 litres of water to make a saturated brine solution

Eg 25 litre softener in London when the hardness is 300mg/l (0.3g)

            Capacity or water between regenerations:       25 l x 50g = 1250g/ 0.3g =4166 litres  (at 160 l /day/person in London = 26 man days)
                                                                                              4 people in a house = 6 days between regenerations.
            Salt usage per regeneration:                               25 l x 140g = 3500g = 3.5 Kg
            Amount of brine in brine tank:                            3 x salt = 10.5 litre

When sizing a system the average flow and the peak flow rate need to be taken into account. Try and size a system to run for 3 days without regenerating or a duplex for 12 hours. The average flow rate is normally 40 times the litres of resin (40BV) although peak flows are often higher. For a duplex softener a run time of 12 hours is ok as the standby system can kick in while the duty vessel is off line being regenerated.

dazmond

  • Posts: 23968
Re: Ro membrane recycling
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2015, 10:14:22 pm »
im so glad my tap tds is 30-35.i think i would of stayed trad if i had to do all that faffing around with ROs and membranes!

i think i was born lucky sometimes ;D
price higher/work harder!

jk999

  • Posts: 2089
Re: Ro membrane recycling
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2015, 10:29:02 am »
Seams like to much messing about in my eyes

slap bash

  • Posts: 1366
Re: Ro membrane recycling
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2015, 06:17:17 pm »
It can like most things be a hassle   but if you need to save money it might be the option.

martin hulstone

  • Posts: 323
Re: Ro membrane recycling
« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2015, 03:04:01 pm »
im so glad my tap tds is 30-35.i think i would of stayed trad if i had to do all that faffing around with ROs and membranes!

i think i was born lucky sometimes ;D
I dont think producing pure water at a tds of 350 warrants staying trad? it costs me about 80 pounds a month to produce pure water yet my turnover has nearly doubled, my insurance has dropped and i know i can pay the bills in the comfort of knowing i dont have to worry about time off work because of falling of a ladder, plus i know longer suffer from gout or tendanitis in my feet from being on ladders for 15 years!