[Sir Squeaky]

Pricing is all relative too... I target wealthy areas which means I can charge that little bit more and people will pay it.

Yeah, that's what I do.
I won't do any cheapo estates.(like the one I live in )
I'm an upper-class glass cleaner. 

[steve k]

I wasn`t aware people paid me danger money when I clean Trad...
Of course they don`t!!
I charge for the house...I give a price and then turn up to clean it.
If my WFP will do the job, it gets used... if it is not suitable, I go trad if it is safe to do so.
If I cannot use trad safely and WFP will not do a good job...it does not get done...no problems...customer is told and I don`t lose any sleep over it.
I think that has happened once by the way.
I certainly do not say" oh, by the way, I use WFP so the cost will be double" or words to that effect.
I charge the customer a fair price for cleaning the windows based on the time I expect to take. What they are paying for is the end result...clean windows..how I choose to give them that is down to my choice of tools...WFP or trad...simple!!

[Ian_Giles]

Rog,
I don't think it is about risk, I've never charged 'danger money' in my life, the greater the level of difficulty in the job, the more I charge.
That doesn't change with WFP.
Getting at some windows over conseratories for instance is quite hard work, 3rd or 4th floor work is demanding on the body too, and the higher you go, the longer it takes (even if it is still far quicker than trad)

Will prices tumble?

Won't make an awful lot of difference in the housing estates, although WFP is generally quicker, the differential between the 2 methods isn't great enough to make a difference.

On bigger work, or georgian and leaded work then prices could well tumble because fools think that just because they are faster they should drop their prices.
It isn't just about speed though, your running costs are higher, there is more work involved outside of the workplace itself.
The initial investment is high to begin with and you have to replace things as they wear out.
As I have said before, you don't spend out large sums of money, then charge less for the work you do, you may be quicker, but if you charge less you are hardly going to be better off in the long run.

As time goes by, will customers be prepared to pay more to have their windows done trad instead of WFP?
Highly doubtful I think, some big house that a WFP'er is charging just £15 for and can do in 20 or 25 minutes is hardly likely to want to pay £45 for to a trad cleaner that won't be able to do the job any quicker than an hour and a half to 2 hours.
And that is the kind of time differential you are talking about on a big house, particularly if they are georgian.

On the estate houses the prices won't change too much, there is a pretty big difference in what each window cleaner whether trad or WFP charge anyway.

And of course as time goes on it is also highly likely that working off ladders will be banned, and they will only be used for access only.

The health and safety laws will only get tighter, even if only in dribs and drabs, but in time it will happen, it isn't if, it's when.

Ian

[Trevor Knight]

All will say guy's is the minute you start charging less because you are quicker with a WFP is the minute you hang yourself. Don't lose sight of why your doing this job, among many reasons the main one should be the opportunity to earn a good living.

When you price a job think of it as you would have done traditionally. Whenever I price a new job I always walk around with the customer, talking as their friend not as a salesman I point out that we will clean the window woodwork/PVC as part of our service. I point to the areas I mean and have yet to find a house with gleaming framework so it's normally easy to highlight dirt and grime. I laugh when they tell me I won't be able to clean the window above the conservatory and then reassure them I will clean ALL the windows as I use a WFP system. This way the customer has seen two main selling features and is not bothered HOW we clean them, all they want is the finished results and normally ASAP!!

If a customer has a beautiful garden explain you won't be digging Ladders into the grass leaving marks everywhere etc.. etc.. the list is endless

Occassionally I have the odd new customer say "that was quick" to which I always reply yes but look at the results and ask them to come and check the work, this is when taking your time on a first clean is invaluable!! I also drop into the convesation as we walk around that I haven't come across many traditional window cleaners using a squeegee that cost £100's to put together, hence why they take a bit longer than me!

I am fortunate as I work in the South and our average 3 bed semi is charged at £12/£15, I know in other areas it is harder to get this costing so the last thing I want is for people to start worrying that they take less time and so REDUCE their price!!

You don't pay less using a Drive through Restaurant than if you sat inside the same restaurant so why should we be different and drop our prices just because we are quicker??

Good luck, Trev

[Sir Squeaky]

I think this is losing direction really.
It getting into waffle about being quicker (which against me it isn't).

Cheers anyway to those who answered sensibly (Pj, Steve, Chris and Ian).

And of course as time goes on it is also highly likely that working off ladders will be banned, and they will only be used for access only.

The health and safety laws will only get tighter, even if only in dribs and drabs, but in time it will happen, it isn't if, it's when.

Still clinging to that hope Ian?

I was working next to a H&S officer last week on building site and he looked up and said "morning, nice day for that job!"

It's not going to happen.

[Morph]

"morning, nice day for that job!"[/b]

He may have said that, Rog, but he was thinking, "I've got your card marked Sunshine"!

[sunshine windows]

  He may have said that, Rog, but he was thinking, "I've got your card marked Sunshine"!   

Gonna be changing to wfp soon, honest guv. 

Won't be changing any of my prices either.

Sunshine

[sunshine windows]

Now for the serious reply Squeaky.

As for us trad window cleaners being able to charge more for still doing the job the 'dangerous' way. This comment is absolutely absurd in my opinion. If we're not happy with the dangers then jump on the wfp bandwagon.

I also don't agree with upping the charges to fund your investment either. From what's been said about the speed of wfp you should cover your costs in building a bigger customer base and work increase in no time.

I can't see domestic wfp's prices being slashed. From what i can gather there is a shortage of cleaners to jobs ratio anyway. As more decide to invest and go into commercial work though, quite possible that people will start to quote a lot cheaper for fear of not getting the job.

Sunshine

[dai]

All will say guy's is the minute you start charging less because you are quicker with a WFP is the minute you hang yourself.
Well said Trev. Dai

[Sir Squeaky]

As for us trad window cleaners being able to charge more for still doing the job the 'dangerous' way. This comment is absolutely absurd in my opinion. If we're not happy with the dangers then jump on the wfp bandwagon.
: I quote myself..."I'm not saying I should charge more" and I'm perfectly happy with the dangers.

I also don't agree with upping the charges to fund your investment either. From what's been said about the speed of wfp you should cover your costs in building a bigger customer base and work increase in no time.
I agree, that's the closest to my thinking so far....

I see we're back to speed again, it's nothing to with the question asked.
I just think more customers are going to start questioning prices now that the job is an easy safe one.....

[sunshine windows]

It may well be easier and safer using wfp but that's down to the shrewd business investment of wc's who opt for this. They should not be punished for this and deserve to get the same going rate as trad cleaners. No more and no less.

Sunshine

[Trevor Knight]

Hmm, can't remember the last time I charged someone for the dangers incurred by going up a ladder, have always based my prices on how long it will take me? Anyway, enough about safety or speed, isn't it more to the point that the customer pays us to CLEAN their windows and not HOW we do it, so whatever method you use as long as the windows are clean what does it matter?

[Ian_Giles]

Rog, ultimately it is all about speed, danger itself has absolutely nothing to with what you charge.
On a standard semi when you are working off ladders you don't even think about 'danger' it just doesn't come into it.

What might force prices down is the speed at which you work.

I'm still to do a post about a big bungalow with a large conservatory I did a few days back, 18 windows on the house, 10 windows on the conservatory 14 minutes to clean the lot.
Not a snowballs chance you could equal that dude, that's 28 in 14 minutes (including frames too) 30 seconds a window, and if I hadn't bothered with the frames it would have been quicker still.

I'm sorry mate, you might be as quick on a small house with 10 windows, or near enough to make no difference, but as the property gets bigger, or there are more panes to clean you will not match WFP.

And these are speeds that the majority of average window cleaners can achieve too, whereas the pace that you work at, very few trad window cleaners will be able to match, because I do concede that you are very quick.

But your question has to come down to speed and not danger.

It is the fact that you are quicker with WFP that might drive prices on some work downwards.
And as I said, it will also impact on the ladder user because, based purely on time, prices could drop by 2 thirds.
A totally wrong way of pricing, but unfortunatley many will be blinkered and only look at how long it takes to do the job and will ignore all the setup costs and running costs etc.

And yes, I do still think that ladders will be a no no at some point in the near future.
There is always another little step that H & S can take to further reduce risks, I don't agree with it I might add, but it will happen, eventually they will take the viewpoint that window cleaning off ladders is avoidable and cost effective.

It cannot now be denied that there is a viable and affordable alternative, and of course more and more cleaners are making the change.
But how long do you really think it will take for those that make the rules to realise that there is no longer a reason to allow window cleaners to work off ladders (exceptional circumstances notwithstanding).
And another area that pressure will be applied from is the insurance companies.

But am I clinging to the hope that ladders will be banned?
Of course I'm not, those still on ladders make it possible for us using WFP to keep our prices up for one thing.

Ian

[windows_chepstow]

I must admit that I priced a farm house up recently and charged less than I would've had I not had a WFP.

Then I'd probably have charged £35, but I really wanted the account, so charged £25.  It's not big, only 18 windows, but technically time consuming when done traditionally (high ground floor windows and quite a few of them small paned and pentagon shaped).

But it has good parking, easy access all round and it's by a place I pass at LEAST twice per day.

I also like accounts I can get too - close to home - and do by myself after I drop Wor Lass off home at 2.00 pm/2.30 pm; so this was ideal for me and after the initial clean, I reckon I'll be to do it 20 minutes or so.

So yes, WFP can and does bring window cleaning prices down.

(I'll probably get a 'telling off' from Ian, over a pint, at some stage for doing what I did)

[ronaldo]

£25.00 quid for 20 miutes work! sounds like a good account to have in your book to me Tosh. 

[Andrew McCann]

I must admit that I priced a farm house up recently and charged less than I would've had I not had a WFP.

Then I'd probably have charged £35, but I really wanted the account, so charged £25.  It's not big, only 18 windows, but technically time consuming when done traditionally (high ground floor windows and quite a few of them small paned and pentagon shaped).

But it has good parking, easy access all round and it's by a place I pass at LEAST twice per day.

I also like accounts I can get too - close to home - and do by myself after I drop Wor Lass off home at 2.00 pm/2.30 pm; so this was ideal for me and after the initial clean, I reckon I'll be to do it 20 minutes or so.

So yes, WFP can and does bring window cleaning prices down.

(I'll probably get a 'telling off' from Ian, over a pint, at some stage for doing what I did)

Spot on Tosh

Just one of the advantages of WFP mate.  You have the choice this way and can take on "awkward trad" work and still get a very good hourly rate.

As to Squeaky's original point my customers never paid me danger money. They pay me for a service that I offer them. Full stop. Yes a few said they wanted them done because they dont like climbing ladders. Trad or WFP the customer still doesn't have to do this so different methods but same result for the customer.

I have thought seriously about "niche" trad cleaning in the not too distant future. My conclusion: No it wont work as an added value service. Regs WILL tighten up and it will soon be the case that WFP is the accepted method of window cleaning in every sector including domestic.

I sometimes do think that Squeaky gets jumped on for sticking to his guns. I say good luck to him. Its his business and he is entitled to run it as he sees fit.

I honestly dont think his heart would be in his business using WFP and I undertand that.

Andrew

[stuart webster]

As for us trad window cleaners being able to charge more for still doing the job the 'dangerous' way. This comment is absolutely absurd in my opinion. If we're not happy with the dangers then jump on the wfp bandwagon.
: I quote myself..."I'm not saying I should charge more" and I'm perfectly happy with the dangers.

I also don't agree with upping the charges to fund your investment either. From what's been said about the speed of wfp you should cover your costs in building a bigger customer base and work increase in no time.
I agree, that's the closest to my thinking so far....

I see we're back to speed again, it's nothing to with the question asked.
I just think more customers are going to start questioning prices now that the job is an easy safe one.....

Sorry but I don't see it that way, the comments I get, as a recent convert, are

"how much more will it cost?"

"I bet that cost you a bit"

Nobody, but nobody has brought up about it being quicker therefore cheaper.
They accept that the equipment has cost me and are happy not to be charged any more for the job.

Why don't you come back to this question when you have experience in WFP.

Maybe people you talk to raise this after being led by your negative comments.