[Mike_Boxall]

Topics like this always get a reaction because of the diverse range of window cleaners dealing with such a diverse range of customers.

There are always exceptions but generally those people that question how much money can be made from WFP are usually those that advocate building cheap homemade systems.

Have a look at the guys that are making serious money from WFP and they'll be using premium equipment doing work for premium customers charging premium rates. Backpacks and trolleys are fine to get you started but to make serious money from WFP you really need serious equipment! As I've said before, window cleaning equipment is no different to anything else and if you want satisfy your own curiosity make the effort to see the system in use.

There is a market for all types of equipment as there is a market for all types of customers. It's entirely your choice!

Regards

Mike

[Jon T.C.]

When do you get your demo model Mike?

[Mike_Boxall]

Hi Jon

We're due to have the unit fitted on 31st of this month.

We're obviously keen to get some of these units on the road locally as soon as possible so we'll be offering some introductory offers during June to start getting them out there. We have several forum members already waiting for us to get the demo vehicle in before they commit to new systems from other suppliers. Three of these are already using van mounted units so they'll be able to give an honest and unbiased opinion once they've seen and used the Concept 2o system.

We've made our minds up that they're the best system out there and we welcome any trial from anyone who remains unconvinced.

Please drop me an email if you'd like us to contact you nearer the time.

Regards

Mike

[matt]

We've made our minds up that they're the best system out there and we welcome any trial from anyone who remains unconvinced.

Mike, thats a pretty good impression,

looks like some1 has beaten Onmi for the benchmark systems 

[Mike_Boxall]

Matt

We're still as enthusiastic about the Omnipole systems as we ever have been and we'll continue to promote them. They both compliment each other: Omnipole for the smaller range of  trolleys and trailers and Concept 2o for the larger equipment.

You know that I'm going park this van outside your house until you realise what you're missing out on don't you 

Regards

Mike

[matt]

Matt

We're still as enthusiastic about the Omnipole systems as we ever have been and we'll continue to promote them. They both compliment each other: Omnipole for the smaller range of  trolleys and trailers and Concept 2o for the larger equipment.

You know that I'm going park this van outside your house until you realise what you're missing out on don't you 

Regards

Mike

good answer mike, it was just me having a bit of fun

i am up in malvern in september for the weekend, a load of hippie type invade the showground once a year, this year i will be one of them

[GRAHAM.K]

I think it's time for a bit of a reality check regarding wfp systems.
 Reading certain posts it would appear that if you buy our premium system you somehow attract premium customers and somehow charge premium rates. we've been in business 40 + years and I would say that price determines wether you get the job in the majority of cases.I have yet to have a customer ask to inspect our equipment, so what does it matter whats in the van? home made or factory fitted.
For the record we use factory fitted gear in new vans, so i'm not a diy nut.
I think these post are very misleading to any new window cleaners entering the business thinking if they buy a certain product , by some miracle all this high priced work will come their way.
As for"serious equipment" what does that mean? a bigger tank? two hose reels?
More and more window cleaners are using wfp systems, so much so that it has become a standard method of cleaning.
10 years ago no one would say " to get premium customers and charge premium rates you need serious ladders"
So it would appear that to be a serious window cleaner you have to have product x.
 In the same vein, in Professional window cleaner magazine they have, with one sweeping generalization declared that any window cleaner who has not been on a training course is to be labled a" cowboy" (page 12 issue 7)  funnily enough its in the article about the BWCA Card Scheme.
To be a serious window cleaner you need training course x.

It reminds me of a book i read about the Alaskan  gold rush, the people that made the serious money were the store owners who sold the shovels and picks.

cheers

[Moderator David@stives]

Graham

My waterfed pole system i built myself has now been copied by a manufacturer, even down to the size of the tank, pump etc, I kid you not every single part.
I know this could be a coincidence because these parts are freely available, and i researched the best parts i could, so they must have done the same and drawn the same conclusions.

I thnk that concept20 is trying to portray is an image more than anything, I am not saying it is not a quality system.

As for cowboys, i think some people are trying to put that label on any window cleaner who has not got a brand new van and a £5000+ system and never been on a course.

Well apart from the course which i attended last year i am a full fledged cowboy and not doing too bad thanks ,having recently purchased my second van and system.

I would challenge any one to try and poach my customers, just because they have been on a course and got a finance package off a wfp mfr does not make them any better than me.

Saying all that i know Carl and Julie have got a concept they believe in and i would rather have them reccommended on this site for the higher quality end of the market than some some.

Remember some people want a ready to drive and work package, so i reckon that system may suit them, and you have to admit it looks a very professional package.

Dave

[Mike_Boxall]

Graham, you’re quite right. Just by buying the best equipment doesn’t mean you’ll have a successful business. But, without wanting to sound repetitive, generally, those that use the best equipment are those that are most successful. Why do you think that is?  Having been in business 40 years I’m sure you’ll appreciate that, again generally, you get what you pay for. But let’s be clear here because I think you’ve missed the point a little bit, it’s not about ‘attracting premium customers at premium rates’ because you have something that looks good, it’s about doing more work in less time with less effort. That’s the way to remain competitive and that’s the main difference between one system and another (although the Concept 2o branding does allow you to attract more business) But, whatever the difference and / or benefits, yes you pay for them!

I’ve done the argument about the Mercedes and the push bike getting you from A to B so many times that, frankly, I don’t bother with it any more. Normally, I just ignore comments like yours as it usually turns into a ‘my system’s better than yours topic’ or worse still ‘why should I pay several thousand pounds when I can make my own for a couple of hundred quid’. You’ve made a valid point and I can understand how you feel you’re making a valuable contribution. However, if you’re not convinced, and if you really want to know why we think it’s so much different to others then call me and arrange to have a look at it. It doesn’t just look good, it’s better built and easier to use. That’s what I meant when I described it as serious.

Just one final comment about training and, again, I hope you don’t take this personally. I agree, as indeed I’m sure anyone else would, that just because you haven’t done a training course it doesn’t mean you’re a cowboy. However, I can’t believe that there are still people out there that don’t accept that people that have done formal training courses don’t, generally, do a better job than those that haven’t done them! Sure there are exceptions (maybe you’re one of them) but I think anyone with any common sense agrees that training is a good thing. Let’s not knock it!

Regards

Mike

[Archy136]

I've just bought a 9 year old 5 series. Cost me 3 1/2 grand. Would you pay that for a modeo the same age? Of course not. It s about quality, It drives and feels better than most new cars.

Like I said before If I was buying a new system now I would get the best quality system out there(And before you acuse me of leading newbies astray this only if I had an established round)

[GRAHAM.K]

mike
I dont think I missed the point at all.
you said  "guys using premium equipment attract premium customers charging premium rates" which now you say means "working easier and quicker" quite a different statement altogether.
 
I have many customers who have never seen a van or a window cleaner at their premises. ( early morning cleans) . the majority dont care what you are using as long as you clean the windows at a price they agree with.


as for the home built versus factory argument been such an old tale, I agree but I see you have no problem stating that your gear is better built than anyone elses. same tale really isn't it.

As for training, yes it' a positive thing, but just because I have'nt been to a certain company and done a certain course I should not be labled "cowboy"

As for people producing higher quality work because they have been on a certain training course, well come on its only window cleaning , hardly rocket science is it ? And anyone who "prduces quality work without going on a course is an exception!!!"  what?
There are probably hundreds of window cleaners on this site that produce quality work every day and have done for years  without any acadamy training.

regards

 sorry archie136 i dont know what a modeo is.

[Trevor Knight]

I have read everyones comments and understand where all of you are coming from.

I think the key factor in this discussion is that whatever equipment you use it is relevant to what stage your business is at.

When i first started out I brought a cheap domestic use ladder and equipment. 6 Months later a professional trade ladder as it was more stable etc...

Went from a cheap run around car to a cheap van to a newer van and now to a brand new van.

As with WFP, I brought a DIY set up, worked great but only a 95ltr tank working of DI. Then a 650ltr tank working of RO in a van.

Now I am at a stage when I need a 3rd vehicle for my guys and am going to purchase a new Van with a new system built by a market leader.

I always set out with the intention of developing my business to a large scale operation. Over 15 years I have continued in this manner and as I have developed so has my image.

I don't think if anyone on here had an endless pot of money they would opt for DIY, We all want to look as professional as we can and I am a believer that a well put together system along with a nice new van will do just that. Granted, it does not mean your work will be better that anyone else but I believe your image will be raised.

Regards and best wishes,
Trev

[D woods]

Hi Guys
I have to agree with Mike Boxall on this subject, if you want to work for
blue chip customers and charge premium prices you have to look the
part.

This means having professional looking equipment. If however you are
happy to work for shirt buttons then you can turn up with crap gear.

As someone said before all the guys earning big money out of their
window cleaning business are using professional equipment from
the big manufactures.

[JM123]

Can't agree here at all lads - the systems we build are every bit as good as any concept or ionics machine, our customers can all work at a minimum of £25/hour with many making a lot more than that, our systems cost a fraction of ionics etc so its not down to the cost of the equipment at all - what I have found is that the guys who are prepared to spend big money are the guys who are prepared to put in the work to pay for it all and go out and get new work.  Ok so a new van with graphics etc is going to help attract contract work but I have one customer who spent £1700.00 on a brand new 400ltr system who is turning over nearly £300 a day 4 days a week - his van? A £125 Astravan with a blue door on the passenger side, faded orange the rest of the way round and a bin liner for a passenger side window.  His work is completely commercial.

[D woods]

If he turned up with that van on some of the buildings we clean the security would not let him in.

[Trevor Knight]

Guy's, lets not question what is obvious.

000 TDS water is the same as 000TDS water no matter how it is created, be it in a brand new Merc Van carrying Tucker Pole Systems or in a DIY unit in your back garden.

The point is this.

If you turn up to a major national or blue chip client they will not expect to see a van with a bin liner as a window. Yes, granted the equipment inside will do the job just as efficiently but from the outside looking in the van does everything but look professional.

I agree that most contracts are awarded on cost basis and not image, however, if you turn up to do the work in an old heap thats falling apart you may well lose work.

I clean several stately homes and in my early days struggled to get through the front door in my old car as they never trust you, despite what you can show them, insurance, references etc....

Now, I get referal after referal and have no problem turning up in our professional sign wirtten vans, and guess what, the systems inside are DIY kit!

Like I said, image will win you more than you lose

regards,

Trev

[Mike_Boxall]

Ok so a new van with graphics etc is going to help attract contract work but I have one customer who spent £1700.00 on a brand new 400ltr system who is turning over nearly £300 a day 4 days a week - his van? A £125 Astravan with a blue door on the passenger side, faded orange the rest of the way round and a bin liner for a passenger side window.  His work is completely commercial.

I always say I'm not going to get drawn into these arguments but sometimes I just can't let it go.....

JM - Being blunt about it, I think your customer would have struggled getting a 'premium' system fitted to a van like that. I certainly wouldn't have fitted a Concept 2o system in it!

Graham - You say it's not 'rocket science' but WFP is, actually, science. Many window cleaners have windows that spot and have no idea why, they assume it's just 'one of those things' and hope it gets better next time. It's not magic, there's a reason why some some windows spot and others don't. Whether it's hydrophilic glass or hydrophobic glass, local conditions, tds levels, rinsing techniques or whatever, many window cleaners work it out through trial and error but many others just accept it. If they did a course they'd have a better understanding of how these things can affect their work and, ultimately, how to solve the problems everyone gets occassionally.

But listen, I've really had enough of this argument now and I'm not going to get drawn into it anymore. In fact, I'm going to agree with the following points and then delete any further arguments that cover the same issues. People get tired of reading the same stuff time and again (and I get tired of writing it). I really hope you don't take it personally, I'm sure you've got better things to do as well.

So, to sum these arguments up:

You don't HAVE to do a training course to clean windows! But I believe it helps.
You CAN buy cheaper systems that purify water and pump it up a pole! But I think there's more to it than that.
You don't HAVE to buy a smart new van! But I think it's money well spent.
You don't HAVE to buy the best equipment! I just think it's better value and it's what I would do if I was buying a system.
You don't HAVE to take my advice! Take the time to look around and make your own decision.

Happy Window Cleaning!

Mike

[P @ F]

Can i butt in here ?
I have a 2001 VW and a £1200 diy system , i have only ever had spots on 1 house , i have not had a training course , self taught , i have had wfp for about 18 months , i will spend what i need to to get the job done , and thats all , i would love a brand new van and a top of the line system , but why would i waste the money when i get the results that i get with what i can afford to spend  ?
Im as happy as Larry !

 Rich  P @ F   

[Moderator David@stives]

Its a case of what came first the chicken or the egg.

In a year or so i may invest in a brand new van and image and i think concept20 is not a bad way to go.

I am only thinking this way now because my business is getting to the stage where a monthly payment will not feel too bad against my turnover and besides that the payments can be offset against tax.

If i was still pottering along on a £20,000 turnover there is no way i would now be considering this, as you get more turnover you would be foolish not to consider the alternatives to self builds and older vans.

I suspect most of the guys with huge turnovers did not start out down the complete package route , i suspect they started out the same way as most of us and as there businesses developed and funds became available £18,000- £25,000 did not seem such a huge investment and in turn by spending that money and upping there image they became more successful. I dont think they went out and thought ok lets go and buy a package and earn lots of money right from the start.

A question for David Woods what vehicle was you driving when you first got your first break with that departement store, i am just guessing you were like most, older vehicle etc, please dont take offence.

I can understand all the points of view here.

I believe p&f what he says no you can get by with home build etc no problems.

Also i am listening to Mike Boxhall and more importantly David Woods as he could teach us all a thing or 2 , just check out his website and his story.

The more successful he got the more he invested in the right package and the more he invested the more successful he became.

Remember its horses for courses, if you are happy with your average semi, well thats fine ,no problems at all.

If you want people to sit up and take notice then concept 20 is the man.

Remember chicken and egg

Dave

[Mike_Boxall]

OK guys (and girls!), here it is.

There has been a delay getting the unit fitted because of the vehicle delivery times, and the recent demand for the systems, but today we collected the new demo vehicle. I'm waiting to upload some of the better photo's we've taken but here are a couple I took earlier. They don't really do it justice. It looks good from the outside but you can't see the attention to detail internally that sets it apart from the rest. The whole fit really is superb but don't take my word for it, come and see for yourself!

I'm pleased to say we already have Cleanitup members ordering the systems (and who have already had them delivered!) and today I've seen an unsolicited testimonial from one of them who has already picked up work from the branding within a week of having it!

We'll also soon have loads more technical information available on the systems together with some real case studies of how much users are earning from them. If you have any questions please ask.

We've obviously had a lot of emails about the system since the topic was started and we intend to contact everyone in the next couple of days. However, in the unlikely event that you're not contacted by the end of the week please give us a call. You can speak to myself or Dean Gibbard on 01684 565552 extension 127 to arrange a demo. We're based in Malvern, Worcestershire and will be covering the entire Midlands but we'll also try and accomodate anyone outside the area.

Regards

Mike Boxall