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PoleKing

  • Posts: 8974
Battery
« on: January 21, 2015, 08:19:41 pm »
I know a few lads on here are knowledgable about batteries. I wonder if you can help me please.

A few months ago I had some ag with my autocharger. To finish the day, I disconnected it and ran direct from my van battery.
When I got home, I was going to set up everything as it should be but wanted to experiment with using just the van's battery.

I've run my system only from the vans battery now for 2 full months and whats gone of January. Without issue.
All of my work is half an hour to an hour away so it gets a good run down and back.
I've not discharged my van battery so much that the van wouldn't start. Not even a struggle.
Though I am still a bit nervous about doing my full tank in one sitting without moving the van and then flattening the battery so that it won't turn the engine over to get home.
I'm thinking about using my system battery and van battery in parallel. So that i have a bank of 2 12v batteries. That'll definitely give me enough power for the whole tank and enough to drive home.

Questions;

1) How do i connect the 2 batteries in parallel as opposed to series? Is it red to red & black to black then spur off?

2) Can anyone foresee any issues if i do decide to do this?

3) Of what benefit is the autocharger as opposed to just doing this?

TIA 
www.LanesWindowCleaning.com

It's just the internet. Try not to worry.

Ian Sheppard

  • Posts: 1228
Re: Battery
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2015, 10:13:21 pm »
1. What is the difference between series battery connections and parallel battery connections and how do they increase battery capacity and voltage?

Answer: In the SERIES CONNECTION, batteries of like voltage and Amp-Hr capacity are connected to increase the Voltage of the battery bank. The positive terminal of the first battery is connected to the negative terminal of the second battery and so on, until the desired voltage is reached. The final Voltage is the sum of all the battery voltages added together while the final Amp-Hr, Cranking Performance and Reserve Capacity remain unchanged.
       
2. I would say do not connect in series, doing this as you will double the battery voltage to 24V ( 2 x 12v 75ah) in series = 24V ) but 75AH
The AH rating remains unchanged. You will damage the pump, cables and any controller if you try push 24v through it

Connection in parallel is ok as voltage  remains the same at 12V. but you increase the available amp hours.
 
Answer: In PARALLEL CONNECTION, batteries of like voltages and capacities are connected to increase the capacity of the battery bank. The positive terminals of all batteries are connected together, or to a common conductor, and all negative terminals are connected in the same manner. The final voltage remains unchanged while the capacity of the bank is the sum of the capacities of the individual batteries of this connection. Amp-Hrs, Cranking Performance and Reserve Capacity increases while Voltage does not.
       
Connecting in Parallel will give you 12V but double the AH rating EG (2 x 12V 75AH ) = 12V but 150AH

Do bear in mind that a leisure battery and Vehicle battery are designed to discharge in different ways. As a rule you are better off running the system from a leisure battery which is designed for longer continuous discharging.

   It is well worth mentioning the difference between the Leisure battery and a Vehicle battery.

A car's battery is designed to provide a very large amount of current for a short period of time. This surge of current is needed to turn the engine over during starting. Once the engine starts, the alternator provides all the power that the car needs and slowly recharges the battery. So a car battery may go through its entire life without ever being drained more than 20 percent of its total capacity. Used in this way, a car battery can last a number of years. To achieve a large amount of current, a car battery uses thin plates in order to increase its surface area.

A deep cycle battery is designed to provide a steady amount of current over a long period of time. A deep cycle battery can provide a surge when needed, but nothing like the surge that a car battery can produce. A deep cycle battery is also designed to be deeply discharged over and over again (something that would ruin a car battery very quickly). To accomplish this, a deep cycle battery uses thicker plates.

A car battery typically has two ratings:

CCA (Cold Cranking Amps) - The number of amps that the battery can produce at (0 degrees C) for 30 seconds.

RC (Reserve Capacity) - The number of minutes that the battery can deliver 25 amps whilst keeping its voltage above 10.5 volts

Typically, a deep cycle battery will have two or three times the RC of a car battery, but will deliver one-half or three-quarters the CCAs. In addition, a deep cycle battery can withstand several hundred total discharge/recharge cycles, while a car battery is not designed to be totally discharged.

Fitting a split relay may help boost the leisure battery by a few amps depending on how much driving you do each day. Also ensure you fit the correctly rated fuse to protect the system

These links may be useful http://www.springltd.co/node/152
http://www.springltd.co/node/139 & Battery Basics: http://www.progressivedyn.com/battery_basics.html

You may be best talking to an auto electrician before you consider any of this. Also be wary you are not invalidating your vehicle warranty by adding to the electrical system of the vehicle.

V16 Is Here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AhbZirSlpI&t=8s
Polarity Protect technology

JSMC

  • Posts: 3511
Re: Battery
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2015, 10:22:59 pm »
6 year i ran mines with no problems

Clever Forum Name

  • Posts: 5942
Re: Battery
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2015, 10:24:26 pm »
1. What is the difference between series battery connections and parallel battery connections and how do they increase battery capacity and voltage?

Answer: In the SERIES CONNECTION, batteries of like voltage and Amp-Hr capacity are connected to increase the Voltage of the battery bank. The positive terminal of the first battery is connected to the negative terminal of the second battery and so on, until the desired voltage is reached. The final Voltage is the sum of all the battery voltages added together while the final Amp-Hr, Cranking Performance and Reserve Capacity remain unchanged.
       
2. I would say do not connect in series, doing this as you will double the battery voltage to 24V ( 2 x 12v 75ah) in series = 24V ) but 75AH
The AH rating remains unchanged. You will damage the pump, cables and any controller if you try push 24v through it

Connection in parallel is ok as voltage  remains the same at 12V. but you increase the available amp hours.
 
Answer: In PARALLEL CONNECTION, batteries of like voltages and capacities are connected to increase the capacity of the battery bank. The positive terminals of all batteries are connected together, or to a common conductor, and all negative terminals are connected in the same manner. The final voltage remains unchanged while the capacity of the bank is the sum of the capacities of the individual batteries of this connection. Amp-Hrs, Cranking Performance and Reserve Capacity increases while Voltage does not.
       
Connecting in Parallel will give you 12V but double the AH rating EG (2 x 12V 75AH ) = 12V but 150AH

Do bear in mind that a leisure battery and Vehicle battery are designed to discharge in different ways. As a rule you are better off running the system from a leisure battery which is designed for longer continuous discharging.

   It is well worth mentioning the difference between the Leisure battery and a Vehicle battery.

A car's battery is designed to provide a very large amount of current for a short period of time. This surge of current is needed to turn the engine over during starting. Once the engine starts, the alternator provides all the power that the car needs and slowly recharges the battery. So a car battery may go through its entire life without ever being drained more than 20 percent of its total capacity. Used in this way, a car battery can last a number of years. To achieve a large amount of current, a car battery uses thin plates in order to increase its surface area.

A deep cycle battery is designed to provide a steady amount of current over a long period of time. A deep cycle battery can provide a surge when needed, but nothing like the surge that a car battery can produce. A deep cycle battery is also designed to be deeply discharged over and over again (something that would ruin a car battery very quickly). To accomplish this, a deep cycle battery uses thicker plates.

A car battery typically has two ratings:

CCA (Cold Cranking Amps) - The number of amps that the battery can produce at (0 degrees C) for 30 seconds.

RC (Reserve Capacity) - The number of minutes that the battery can deliver 25 amps whilst keeping its voltage above 10.5 volts

Typically, a deep cycle battery will have two or three times the RC of a car battery, but will deliver one-half or three-quarters the CCAs. In addition, a deep cycle battery can withstand several hundred total discharge/recharge cycles, while a car battery is not designed to be totally discharged.

Fitting a split relay may help boost the leisure battery by a few amps depending on how much driving you do each day. Also ensure you fit the correctly rated fuse to protect the system

These links may be useful http://www.springltd.co/node/152
http://www.springltd.co/node/139 & Battery Basics: http://www.progressivedyn.com/battery_basics.html

You may be best talking to an auto electrician before you consider any of this. Also be wary you are not invalidating your vehicle warranty by adding to the electrical system of the vehicle.



Ahh you beat me to it. Was just about to say that.

capn sparkle

  • Posts: 567
Re: Battery
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2015, 10:33:38 pm »
1. What is the difference between series battery connections and parallel battery connections and how do they increase battery capacity and voltage?

Answer: In the SERIES CONNECTION, batteries of like voltage and Amp-Hr capacity are connected to increase the Voltage of the battery bank. The positive terminal of the first battery is connected to the negative terminal of the second battery and so on, until the desired voltage is reached. The final Voltage is the sum of all the battery voltages added together while the final Amp-Hr, Cranking Performance and Reserve Capacity remain unchanged.
       
2. I would say do not connect in series, doing this as you will double the battery voltage to 24V ( 2 x 12v 75ah) in series = 24V ) but 75AH
The AH rating remains unchanged. You will damage the pump, cables and any controller if you try push 24v through it

Connection in parallel is ok as voltage  remains the same at 12V. but you increase the available amp hours.
 
Answer: In PARALLEL CONNECTION, batteries of like voltages and capacities are connected to increase the capacity of the battery bank. The positive terminals of all batteries are connected together, or to a common conductor, and all negative terminals are connected in the same manner. The final voltage remains unchanged while the capacity of the bank is the sum of the capacities of the individual batteries of this connection. Amp-Hrs, Cranking Performance and Reserve Capacity increases while Voltage does not.
       
Connecting in Parallel will give you 12V but double the AH rating EG (2 x 12V 75AH ) = 12V but 150AH

Do bear in mind that a leisure battery and Vehicle battery are designed to discharge in different ways. As a rule you are better off running the system from a leisure battery which is designed for longer continuous discharging.

   It is well worth mentioning the difference between the Leisure battery and a Vehicle battery.

A car's battery is designed to provide a very large amount of current for a short period of time. This surge of current is needed to turn the engine over during starting. Once the engine starts, the alternator provides all the power that the car needs and slowly recharges the battery. So a car battery may go through its entire life without ever being drained more than 20 percent of its total capacity. Used in this way, a car battery can last a number of years. To achieve a large amount of current, a car battery uses thin plates in order to increase its surface area.

A deep cycle battery is designed to provide a steady amount of current over a long period of time. A deep cycle battery can provide a surge when needed, but nothing like the surge that a car battery can produce. A deep cycle battery is also designed to be deeply discharged over and over again (something that would ruin a car battery very quickly). To accomplish this, a deep cycle battery uses thicker plates.

A car battery typically has two ratings:

CCA (Cold Cranking Amps) - The number of amps that the battery can produce at (0 degrees C) for 30 seconds.

RC (Reserve Capacity) - The number of minutes that the battery can deliver 25 amps whilst keeping its voltage above 10.5 volts

Typically, a deep cycle battery will have two or three times the RC of a car battery, but will deliver one-half or three-quarters the CCAs. In addition, a deep cycle battery can withstand several hundred total discharge/recharge cycles, while a car battery is not designed to be totally discharged.

Fitting a split relay may help boost the leisure battery by a few amps depending on how much driving you do each day. Also ensure you fit the correctly rated fuse to protect the system

These links may be useful http://www.springltd.co/node/152
http://www.springltd.co/node/139 & Battery Basics: http://www.progressivedyn.com/battery_basics.html

You may be best talking to an auto electrician before you consider any of this. Also be wary you are not invalidating your vehicle warranty by adding to the electrical system of the vehicle.



Wot he said  ::)roll ::)roll ::)roll or get a decent split relay fitted  ;D ;D ;D

David Kent @ KentKleen

  • Posts: 1712
Re: Battery
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2015, 10:41:01 pm »
An excellent reply/info from Ian.
Poleking,
I run and always have ran my systems in parallel (5 vans running like this) We use GOOD QUALITY (http://www.bannerbatterien.com/banner/produkte/batterien/power_bull/index2_en.php) 'normal' van batteries.
IMO forget about a split charge relay.
Use top quality cable with soldered joints where possible. (http://www.nexxia.co.uk/products.asp?s=Car%20Audio%20Accessories&c=Amplifier%20Power%20cable)
Make sure all connections are made well and check on a regular basis.
Hope this helps

David Kent @ KentKleen

  • Posts: 1712
Re: Battery
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2015, 10:45:50 pm »
Sorry just to add, Battery quality is the key to trouble free pumping IMO. All batteries are not the same inside. Im sure you know the saying 'you get what you pay for'. Avoid cheap batteries.

PoleKing

  • Posts: 8974
Re: Battery
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2015, 10:55:21 pm »
Ian:

Thanks for that.

A few more though...
With one deep cycle and one vehicle battery connected together-wont this give me the best of both worlds?
High CCA's for turning the engine over and long RC for running the pump.
Or does it not work like that? If not, why not please?

I have got a split relay/autocharger now but I just can't seem to get on with it.
A number of lads I know have the same one and they're all fine. Its not the unit I've got as i had it replaced as initially thought that that was the problem.
Could it be the way I work? Today, for example, I drove 45 minutes to work. Did my round which is on 3 streets so hardly any charging. Then 50 minutes or so home.
I can't see how that could adversely affect it but i can't see any other variables.

Thing is, I either will charge the system battery from a bench trickle charger or i will use the split relay/autocharger. I don't want to have the split relay and end up charging the battery anyway.
Is that unrealistic? I know its not a big deal but I like things the way I like them.

Ive got a 110ah system battery. Its about 3 months old. Cost £99 from the caravan shop here.
In case you think that that may be the weak link.

Ive chatted with an auto electrician. He's the guy who sells the chargers. I know him and the other lads who've got the same split charger. I'm the only one with this problem so he is as baffled (well, probably not AS baffled ;D) as me.

I don't really wanna buy another split charger as there's nothing to say i won't have exactly the same problem...

Was it you who put up a link of how many amps i'd use a day and how long i'd have to drive to replenish those used? May have been spruce...?
www.LanesWindowCleaning.com

It's just the internet. Try not to worry.

capn sparkle

  • Posts: 567
Re: Battery
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2015, 10:56:10 pm »
Sorry for hijacking the thread!

Q. for Ian!

I run a pure freedom system from a split relay (van battery charges the leisure battery) but carry another 'spare' battery which runs the LED lights in the back. Always wondered if I could 'top up' the leisure battery from the spare with jump leads if it ran low?

Would this level out the charge in both or ruin one or the other? (different AH grading).

Your help would be much appreciated.

Regards

Glenn

PoleKing

  • Posts: 8974
Re: Battery
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2015, 10:57:42 pm »
Thanks David. I was hoping someone would have tried it already.

I know it may be difficult to answer but how big are the tanks on your vans and how many miles does the van do each day?

Have you ever drained the whole tank in one sitting and not been able to start the van to drive home?
www.LanesWindowCleaning.com

It's just the internet. Try not to worry.

David Kent @ KentKleen

  • Posts: 1712
Re: Battery
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2015, 11:13:54 pm »
1000 ltrs,  2x 500 ltrs, 400 ltr and 350 ltr.
One of the vans with the 500 in does less than 3 miles a day, his round is so compact he moves his van sometimes only twice a day. He spends less than £10 per week on fuel.
The only extra charge the batteries get are when he is filling up (from our static system) and having a chat maybe 20 mins per day.
NEVER had any problems.
The 1000 ltr van gets used on larger commercial jobs and can sit all day without moving more than a couple of hundred metres, again never had a problem.
A split charge relay simply stops your secondary battery from drawing power from your vans battery. It does not boost or aid the charging system. From my experience (auto electrician) they cause more problems than they are worth.

David Kent @ KentKleen

  • Posts: 1712
Re: Battery
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2015, 11:23:52 pm »

Ian Sheppard

  • Posts: 1228
Re: Battery
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2015, 10:26:40 am »
Sorry for hijacking the thread!

Q. for Ian!

I run a pure freedom system from a split relay (van battery charges the leisure battery) but carry another 'spare' battery which runs the LED lights in the back. Always wondered if I could 'top up' the leisure battery from the spare with jump leads if it ran low?

Would this level out the charge in both or ruin one or the other? (different AH grading).

Your help would be much appreciated.

Regards

Glenn


Hi Glen from the information I can find. The batteries need to be the same voltage then initially what will happen is that the amps of both batteries get added so if you have one battery with say 40 amps and the second at 70 amps you in effect have a 110amp 12V battery.

It is also likely that the higher amp battery will now discharge through the lower amp battery so in effect you 40amp battery will stay around 40 amps but the battery with the higher amps will discharge. Both batteries would then need to be charged.

For a short term fix to allow you to complete the last job of the day this would work, But not something you would want to do permanently as the Higher amp battery will always discharge through the lower amp one.

Ian
V16 Is Here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AhbZirSlpI&t=8s
Polarity Protect technology

Ian Sheppard

  • Posts: 1228
Re: Battery
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2015, 11:13:55 am »
Ian:

Thanks for that.

A few more though...
With one deep cycle and one vehicle battery connected together-wont this give me the best of both worlds?
High CCA's for turning the engine over and long RC for running the pump.
Or does it not work like that? If not, why not please?

I have got a split relay/autocharger now but I just can't seem to get on with it.
A number of lads I know have the same one and they're all fine. Its not the unit I've got as i had it replaced as initially thought that that was the problem.
Could it be the way I work? Today, for example, I drove 45 minutes to work. Did my round which is on 3 streets so hardly any charging. Then 50 minutes or so home.
I can't see how that could adversely affect it but i can't see any other variables.

Thing is, I either will charge the system battery from a bench trickle charger or i will use the split relay/autocharger. I don't want to have the split relay and end up charging the battery anyway.
Is that unrealistic? I know its not a big deal but I like things the way I like them.

Ive got a 110ah system battery. Its about 3 months old. Cost £99 from the caravan shop here.
In case you think that that may be the weak link.

Ive chatted with an auto electrician. He's the guy who sells the chargers. I know him and the other lads who've got the same split charger. I'm the only one with this problem so he is as baffled (well, probably not AS baffled ;D) as me.

I don't really wanna buy another split charger as there's nothing to say i won't have exactly the same problem...

Was it you who put up a link of how many amps i'd use a day and how long i'd have to drive to replenish those used? May have been spruce...?

Hi Poleking connecting the batteries in parallel as we have discussed does have the advantage of a bigger AH battery bank. Something to be aware of is that the higher amp battery will always discharge through the lower amp one as in my reply to Glen. So if your vehicle battery amps are 100 and the leisure battery 70 the pump is drawing amps from the vehicle battery until the amps there are lower than the leisure battery. Conversely this would mean that the engine can draw from the leisure battery as well on start if that has the higher amps.

The Split relay is not likely to put back all the current you use during the day. How much current used can depend on a wide range of factors, Flow rates, pump speed. efficiency of the pump motors, Starting volts and current available and even temperature. If we work on the basis of a one 100psi pump this can draw 3 to 5 amps an hour from the battery so time this by the number of hours the pump is working and you get the average current draw a day.

Next The battery will be trickle charged by the alternator, how much current is available can be effected by the size of your alternator in AH production alternators will vary from 60AH up to 190 or so. Next you need to take into account the alternator will supply the vehicle systems 1st before supplying an auxiliary system (leisure battery )

At start up the engine requires a high amount of amps to start commonly taking up to 25% - 35% of the vehicle battery capacity if we assume an 85AH battery then start up needs a lot of amps amps ( this can be higher depending on temperature and weather conditions) Starting the car in low temp of below freezing will draw much higher current)

Once the engine is running the alternator is solely responsible for the electrical needs of the vehicle plus has to recharge the batteries.
On a modern vehicle this can include

Running the engine
Powering any engine management systems
Lights
Radio
Sensors
Wind screen wipers
Air Con if fitted
Heating system
Based on the above the alternator may have to produce between 40 and 75 amps.

On top of the above we are now charging a second battery from the alternator plus any device EG mobile phone MP3 player that is plugged into the Power outlet (cigarette lighter socket)

In cold weather the current draw from the alternator will be much higher.

Both the Vehicle and leisure batteries are designed trickle charge, This means only low current is passed to the batteries as the recharge. It can take the Vehicle battery some time to recover amps used at engine start up.

The alternator will prioritise the vehicle battery and vehicle system over any auxiliary charging, This means only a small amount of the available current is used to charge the leisure battery at any time.

It may just be that you are not doing sufficient driving to put back all the charge you take out of teh leisure battery. At best it will top up some amps in the hour and a 1/2 driving a day. It may be that a bench charge once or twice a week is going to be needed.
V16 Is Here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AhbZirSlpI&t=8s
Polarity Protect technology

PoleKing

  • Posts: 8974
Re: Battery
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2015, 12:26:55 pm »
Thanks for a very comprehensive reply Ian.
I'll give it some more thought.

All the best.
www.LanesWindowCleaning.com

It's just the internet. Try not to worry.

PoleKing

  • Posts: 8974
Re: Battery
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2015, 01:02:38 pm »
1000 ltrs,  2x 500 ltrs, 400 ltr and 350 ltr.
One of the vans with the 500 in does less than 3 miles a day, his round is so compact he moves his van sometimes only twice a day. He spends less than £10 per week on fuel.
The only extra charge the batteries get are when he is filling up (from our static system) and having a chat maybe 20 mins per day.
NEVER had any problems.
The 1000 ltr van gets used on larger commercial jobs and can sit all day without moving more than a couple of hundred metres, again never had a problem.
A split charge relay simply stops your secondary battery from drawing power from your vans battery. It does not boost or aid the charging system. From my experience (auto electrician) they cause more problems than they are worth.

Thanks David.
Was hoping you'd say something like that.
www.LanesWindowCleaning.com

It's just the internet. Try not to worry.

capn sparkle

  • Posts: 567
Re: Battery
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2015, 07:18:04 pm »
Thank you Ian. You've just trebled my battery knowledge albeit from quite a low level.  ;D ;D ;D

I'll favourite this post for future reference.

JSMC

  • Posts: 3511
Re: Battery
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2015, 09:07:20 pm »
unsure whther to fit split charge relay now in van.

JSMC

  • Posts: 3511

rosskesava

  • Posts: 17015
Re: Battery
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2015, 10:10:30 pm »
Simply put, a car or van battery and a leisure should never be connected in parallel (or series) as they have different discharge and charging rates.
Just chant..... Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare, Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare. It's beats chanting Tory Tory or Labour Labour.