Thanks for replies, next question is then, Gardiners dont reccomend it for leaded and georgian but how much of that is them covering their backs. Anyone use it on these without problem? Cant be arsed with changing brushes for different jobs,using one brush for all at the mo (not the vikan stiff) and like it that way but neck and back seem to be constantly playing up so looking for lighter alternative. I dont get on with the Gardiners dual trim sill on an everyday basis, its just not man enough for my liking, goes out of shape quickly and doesnt last as long as id like it to ,hence the questions about the gardiners stiff sill brush.