[robert mitchell]

Bulk head?

Are you seriously suggesting the bulk head would stop a tank full of 350ltrs or more of water in a crash at 40mph + if you are then you're nuts

Of course, remember the tank is baffled, plus if it's a flat tank then of course it'll be safe, my bulk head is solid as a rock, thick solid metal, stop being a turd and go and work for health and safety. Drive safe allow for stopping distances, and all will be well.

Bulk heads are designed to embrace impact. A water tank will not go through a bulk head unless it had a lot of space to fly and smash through it. Even so it would only dent it. A flat tank would not have the force to even remotely bother a bulk head.


There is no way a sheet steel bulkhead , held with fairly small welds is "solid as a rock"  rocks are very very solid.

These two videos show how weak a bulkhead can be , the items in the back are unsecured but also much lighter than the tanks we tend to carry ......my 650 grippa with the metal frame that holds it must be 750-800 kgs ....... i would much rather that didn't hit my bulkhead.

I have also attended car/van/ lorry crashes and it is amazing how unrecognisable some vehicles can end up ......not necessarily at super high speeds either.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgK1285RObA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-i9EMHhZ_Ww

[Walter Mitty]

Bulk head?

Are you seriously suggesting the bulk head would stop a tank full of 350ltrs or more of water in a crash at 40mph + if you are then you're nuts

Of course, remember the tank is baffled, plus if it's a flat tank then of course it'll be safe, my bulk head is solid as a rock, thick solid metal, stop being a turd and go and work for health and safety. Drive safe allow for stopping distances, and all will be well.

Bulk heads are designed to embrace impact. A water tank will not go through a bulk head unless it had a lot of space to fly and smash through it. Even so it would only dent it. A flat tank would not have the force to even remotely bother a bulk head.

Personally, I wouldn't want to rely on a bulkhead.  There is something that you don't seem to have considered.  Supposing you collide with another vehicle or run someone over.  The police would be all over you like a rash.  They could easily allege that you didn't break as hard as you would have if the tank had been fitted professionally.  They might just about be able to swing that in a courtroom too.  If death occurred, it could go as far as a manslaughter rap (worst case scenario admittedly).  So it's not just about whether the bulkhead would protect you.  It's also about whether you would hurt someone else by not applying the brakes as fully as possible.
Yes, we can all drive carefully.  I always have respect for any load I'm carrying.  But it only takes one idiot out there or even another good driver having a bad day...

I really didn't want to get into the pro-fit v DIY but...

How would a crash tested system fare any differently to a DIY one in a collision for someone outside (ie not the driver or passenger)

Same weight on.
Same brakes.
Same reaction time.
Same breaking distance.
Same stopping distance.

Not a   post-a genuine question.
I've had both DIY & Pro-fit systems so no axe to grind either.

Hi Poleking.  Perhaps I didn't explain my thoughts very well.  My thinking was that if a driver knows that their tank is a DIY with ratchet straps or mainly relying on a bulkhead, the self-preservation instinct could be to not apply the brakes fully.  This could be the difference between (a) having or not having a collision OR (b) having a collision at a faster speed than would otherwise be the case.  Even if the brakes were fully applied, the police could allege that the driver may have held back in order to preserve his own skin.  Either way, a prosecution lawyer could make some sort of case.
I first came across something analogous to this some years ago (pre-WFP days).  I had a girlfriend who wouldn't use her seatbelt when she was a passenger in my vehicle.  She used the argument that it was her choice.  'Fair enough' I thought, it's her fine too.  Then one day I needed to make an emergency stop with her in the passenger seat.  She managed to avoid banging her head on the windscreen - just.  When I braked, I was tring to get a balance between not hurting her and not hurting the person in the road.  Luckily, I avoided both scenarios.  My braking was compromised by my knowledge that she wasn't wearing her seatbelt.  In the immediate aftermath, she was still complaining about wearing the belt (yes, I've known some right nutters).  I switched off the engine and refused to budge until she either removed herself from the vehicle or put her belt on.  She put her belt on.

EDIT: I'm not suggesting that anyone pays out for all those bells and whistles on their system - many of them unnecessary.  I'm just suggesting that at least ensure that the tank part is installed professionally.  It doesn't even have to be a WFP supplier - just an engineering company that has the knowledge, tools and equipment.

[PoleKing]

Bulk head?

Are you seriously suggesting the bulk head would stop a tank full of 350ltrs or more of water in a crash at 40mph + if you are then you're nuts

Of course, remember the tank is baffled, plus if it's a flat tank then of course it'll be safe, my bulk head is solid as a rock, thick solid metal, stop being a turd and go and work for health and safety. Drive safe allow for stopping distances, and all will be well.

Bulk heads are designed to embrace impact. A water tank will not go through a bulk head unless it had a lot of space to fly and smash through it. Even so it would only dent it. A flat tank would not have the force to even remotely bother a bulk head.

Personally, I wouldn't want to rely on a bulkhead.  There is something that you don't seem to have considered.  Supposing you collide with another vehicle or run someone over.  The police would be all over you like a rash.  They could easily allege that you didn't break as hard as you would have if the tank had been fitted professionally.  They might just about be able to swing that in a courtroom too.  If death occurred, it could go as far as a manslaughter rap (worst case scenario admittedly).  So it's not just about whether the bulkhead would protect you.  It's also about whether you would hurt someone else by not applying the brakes as fully as possible.
Yes, we can all drive carefully.  I always have respect for any load I'm carrying.  But it only takes one idiot out there or even another good driver having a bad day...

I really didn't want to get into the pro-fit v DIY but...

How would a crash tested system fare any differently to a DIY one in a collision for someone outside (ie not the driver or passenger)

Same weight on.
Same brakes.
Same reaction time.
Same breaking distance.
Same stopping distance.

Not a   post-a genuine question.
I've had both DIY & Pro-fit systems so no axe to grind either.

Hi Poleking.  Perhaps I didn't explain my thoughts very well.  My thinking was that if a driver knows that their tank is a DIY with ratchet straps or mainly relying on a bulkhead, the self-preservation instinct could be to not apply the brakes fully.  This could be the difference between (a) having or not having a collision OR (b) having a collision at a faster speed than would otherwise be the case.  Even if the brakes were fully applied, the police could allege that the driver may have held back in order to preserve his own skin.  Either way, a prosecution lawyer could make some sort of case.
I first came across something analogous to this some years ago (pre-WFP days).  I had a girlfriend who wouldn't use her seatbelt when she was a passenger in my vehicle.  She used the argument that it was her choice.  'Fair enough' I thought, it's her fine too.  Then one day I needed to make an emergency stop with her in the passenger seat.  She managed to avoid banging her head on the windscreen - just.  When I braked, I was tring to get a balance between not hurting her and not hurting the person in the road.  Luckily, I avoided both scenarios.  My braking was compromised by my knowledge that she wasn't wearing her seatbelt.  In the immediate aftermath, she was still complaining about wearing the belt (yes, I've known some right nutters).  I switched off the engine and refused to budge until she either removed herself from the vehicle or put her belt on.  She put her belt on.

EDIT: I'm not suggesting that anyone pays out for all those bells and whistles on their system - many of them unnecessary.  I'm just suggesting that at least ensure that the tank part is installed professionally.  It doesn't even have to be a WFP supplier - just an engineering company that has the knowledge, tools and equipment.

Seems like you've thought about it mate.
I get where you're coming from, but politely disagree.
My point of view would be to slam my anchors on as hard as I could because the impact would cause more damage than braking would.
Agreed-it is a case of driving for the load carried.

Interesting how all the crash tests on youtube, Ionics, and (is it?) pure2o never show an unsecured load and a decent bulkhead. Someone posted videos in this thread. A weighty unsecured load stopped at the bulkhead of a decent enough looking bulkhead. And something the weight of a box of tissues going through a poxy bulkhead.

Vans-the bulkhead in an expert/scudo/dispatch May as we'll be made of 3mm ply and held in with duct tape. Vivaro/Trafic/primastar a lot better. And the Vito, rock solid.
Personal experience of all 3.

My personal gripe is that the noodles in a van are 'designed to secure the load the van is safe to carry'. So should be fine.
A 'crash tested system'-the installers have virtually no comeback in the event of an accident.
Are you more likely to survive a crash if you have a 'crash tested' system?

There is no evidence to support this. Literally none.

There certainly is enough marketing BS to lead one to believe that one would though.

[Walter Mitty]

Seems like you've thought about it mate.
I get where you're coming from, but politely disagree.
My point of view would be to slam my anchors on as hard as I could because the impact would cause more damage than braking would.
Agreed-it is a case of driving for the load carried.

Interesting how all the crash tests on youtube, Ionics, and (is it?) pure2o never show an unsecured load and a decent bulkhead. Someone posted videos in this thread. A weighty unsecured load stopped at the bulkhead of a decent enough looking bulkhead. And something the weight of a box of tissues going through a poxy bulkhead.

Vans-the bulkhead in an expert/scudo/dispatch May as we'll be made of 3mm ply and held in with duct tape. Vivaro/Trafic/primastar a lot better. And the Vito, rock solid.
Personal experience of all 3.

My personal gripe is that the noodles in a van are 'designed to secure the load the van is safe to carry'. So should be fine.
A 'crash tested system'-the installers have virtually no comeback in the event of an accident.
Are you more likely to survive a crash if you have a 'crash tested' system?

There is no evidence to support this. Literally none.

There certainly is enough marketing BS to lead one to believe that one would though.

Sure thing, I realise that much of the marketing cannot be relied upon.  There are a lot of over-egged puddings in this game these days.  Ironically, I do keep WFP as basic as possible and the issue of tank securing is probably the one single area where I do go the extra yard (unlike the tank, hopefully) .  I suppose it comes down to whatever an individual feels comfortable with.  I wouldn't be happy relying on ratchets and/or bulkhead.  I have no evidence to justify that; it's more a gut feeling I suppose.

[PoleKing]

Seems like you've thought about it mate.
I get where you're coming from, but politely disagree.
My point of view would be to slam my anchors on as hard as I could because the impact would cause more damage than braking would.
Agreed-it is a case of driving for the load carried.

Interesting how all the crash tests on youtube, Ionics, and (is it?) pure2o never show an unsecured load and a decent bulkhead. Someone posted videos in this thread. A weighty unsecured load stopped at the bulkhead of a decent enough looking bulkhead. And something the weight of a box of tissues going through a poxy bulkhead.

Vans-the bulkhead in an expert/scudo/dispatch May as we'll be made of 3mm ply and held in with duct tape. Vivaro/Trafic/primastar a lot better. And the Vito, rock solid.
Personal experience of all 3.

My personal gripe is that the noodles in a van are 'designed to secure the load the van is safe to carry'. So should be fine.
A 'crash tested system'-the installers have virtually no comeback in the event of an accident.
Are you more likely to survive a crash if you have a 'crash tested' system?

There is no evidence to support this. Literally none.

There certainly is enough marketing BS to lead one to believe that one would though.

Sure thing, I realise that much of the marketing cannot be relied upon.  There are a lot of over-egged puddings in this game these days.  Ironically, I do keep WFP as basic as possible and the issue of tank securing is probably the one single area where I do go the extra yard (unlike the tank, hopefully) .  I suppose it comes down to whatever an individual feels comfortable with.  I wouldn't be happy relying on ratchets and/or bulkhead.  I have no evidence to justify that; it's more a gut feeling I suppose.

We all have to carry our own load bud.

All the best.

[duncan h]

What a lot of you people cant understand is how strong straps are. If its to an anchor point, its strong as a fitted one. I would say stronger because anchor points are reinforced or to strong point son the chassis.
Wagon drivers use straps to hold 44 tons. They used to use rope with dolly knotts

[PoleKing]

What a lot of you people cant understand is how strong straps are. If its to an anchor point, its strong as a fitted one. I would say stronger because anchor points are reinforced or to strong point son the chassis.
Wagon drivers use straps to hold 44 tons. They used to use rope with dolly knotts

I don't think anyone has questioned the integrity of the ratchet straps, Dunc.
The query tends to be about the strength of the lash point (noodle ring) in the van

[Smudger]

It's a subject worth investigating,

For example, a tank placed, strapped, fixed, bolted against the bulk head becomes part of the van so when braking it brakes with the van, no forward momentum,

So, is a load strapped to the floor display the same charactistics, as the load is fixed would it not stay in place ? All the videos I've seen that show damage the load is loose no fixing or strapping down, and those earlier in the thread have a great big generator flying in behind the load, had this been strapped down even to the noodle it would have cancelled out the forward momentum.

Anyone got a PHD in physics

Darran

[PoleKing]

It's a subject worth investigating,

For example, a tank placed, strapped, fixed, bolted against the bulk head becomes part of the van so when braking it brakes with the van, no forward momentum,

So, is a load strapped to the floor display the same charactistics, as the load is fixed would it not stay in place ? All the videos I've seen that show damage the load is loose no fixing or strapping down, and those earlier in the thread have a great big generator flying in behind the load, had this been strapped down even to the noodle it would have cancelled out the forward momentum.

Anyone got a PHD in physics

Darran

My mate is a maths teacher at a very good school and (I think) studying for his phd though I forget what he's done and got to do.
I got him to work some loadings with relation the the integrity of a strap.
It was much more complicated than I'd've thought.
The force (nM) exerted carrying x weight and coming to an absolute stop from 30mph 40 50 & 60.
Then there's the variable, which he couldn't do. The probability of complete sudden stop is unlikely. As in hitting the pillar of a bridge. That (in a van) is unmovable. More likely you'd hit another vehicle, which would shunt and actually lower the impact force.

[Walter Mitty]

It's a subject worth investigating,

For example, a tank placed, strapped, fixed, bolted against the bulk head becomes part of the van so when braking it brakes with the van, no forward momentum,

So, is a load strapped to the floor display the same charactistics, as the load is fixed would it not stay in place ? All the videos I've seen that show damage the load is loose no fixing or strapping down, and those earlier in the thread have a great big generator flying in behind the load, had this been strapped down even to the noodle it would have cancelled out the forward momentum.

Anyone got a PHD in physics

Darran

My mate is a maths teacher at a very good school and (I think) studying for his phd though I forget what he's done and got to do.
I got him to work some loadings with relation the the integrity of a strap.
It was much more complicated than I'd've thought.
The force (nM) exerted carrying x weight and coming to an absolute stop from 30mph 40 50 & 60.
Then there's the variable, which he couldn't do. The probability of complete sudden stop is unlikely. As in hitting the pillar of a bridge. That (in a van) is unmovable. More likely you'd hit another vehicle, which would shunt and actually lower the impact force.

Yes, the variables would be wide ranging - perhaps more wide ranging than the maths teacher has allowed for.  If there was a head-on collision, I'm wondering if that would be greater impact than hitting something unmovable as both vehicles' speeds would need to be taken into account.  Mind you, in such an unlikely scenario, I imagine that a full water tank wouldn't be the biggest problem anyway.

[Pete Thompson]

The probability of complete sudden stop is unlikely. As in hitting the pillar of a bridge. That (in a van) is unmovable. More likely you'd hit another vehicle, which would shunt and actually lower the impact force.

Unlikely maybe, but still possible, and therefore you'd have to base your calculations on coming to a complete stop.

Also, even if you did hit another vehicle, what if it was heading straight towards you?  (Say for example your van slipped on some ice on a single carraigeway and veered into the opposite lane into oncoming traffic) That is not at all unlikely, my wife had a car accident where exactly this happened.

The impact force would then be increased not decreased.

[cgh window cleaning]

You also need to take in to account that water even strapped or bolted down(tank) will react differently .
A 500 litre tank of water will react differently to 1/2 a ton of bricks strapped down as water is a movable force shifting the weight around.

Some tanks like grippa for example are designed to absorb some of the energy in a crash.
A window cleaner with a grippa tank got hit from behind when he was at a stand still in his vw transporter the back of the van crumpled up to the tank,tank onwards the van was fine.
The tank did not move.

[jimiwindows]

£3000 AND ITS THE NUTS

[Clever Forum Name]

The way the Grippa tank is made is what sold me.

The way the straps bolt into the tank and floor is what sold me.

[duncan h]

£3000 AND ITS THE NUTS

That looks the dogs mate. The reels look like £400 reels. The tank is bolted down, with what looks like at least 25mm. Not a few m8 bolts

[jimiwindows]

Reel £160 on gardeners website