[Buckland]

Tony - condolences mate, this sort of thing is a real PITA

My threepennysworth:

1. You cant really tell from the pics HOW damp the underlay/recycled carpet is - but surely if the wet patch is/was under the carpet you cleaned the top layer would need to have been very wet to make that much damp underneath - everyone who cleans carpets knows this - carpet underlay does not get wet without the face fibre and backing of the carpet (above) becoming really wet - most carpet fitters have no idea how little water is actually used to clean the face fibre of a carpet and how it is removed by vacuum straight away - so this 'problem' does not make any sense - do you remember soaking the top carpet that much - if you do then fess up - if not and you cleaned it normally then its NOT YOUR FAULT and you should contest this - your insurer will need to know your doubts - a good insurer will find an experienced assessor who can fight yours (and their case) they will not pay out if there is doubt about you being blamed.

2. The 2nd pic shows a corner that is de-laminating - but that piece looks as if it is completely dry - did you reply/mention this to them?

3. You say "possibly could have been the person who supplied and fitted that carpet as well so would be reluctant to give any other reason for the delamination." that could be important - are you sure there is not another source for the water/dmapness


A very strange case all around - and it does look like pretty cheaply-made carpet

Good luck!

[Paul Moss]

Unlucky bud, what I find strange though is on the first picture, has the carpet been layer over another carpet? I can see the wet area yet on the actual rolled carpet I cannot see any water marking at all nor any delamonation.

[Carpet Master]

Unlucky bud, what I find strange though is on the first picture, has the carpet been layer over another carpet? I can see the wet area yet on the actual rolled carpet I cannot see any water marking at all nor any delamonation.

Exactly correct!

[Carpet Master]

No, the underlay is laid on top of Hessian paper (or similar) the carpet also does not have a Hessian backing.

Incorrect. That is an old upside down carpet they are using as underlay. If that is not a form of cheap hessian backing then I don't know what is.

I've been fitting carpet for 37 years and I know a little about fitting techniques.

I wouldn't pay out at all as this is not fitted to British Standards.

[Mike Halliday]

That's underlay, not an upside down carpet

[Hilton]

Ask the fella,

Is the underlay being used a piece of carpet and if so have they done the same in the rest of the property..?? ( still looks like underlay to me )

If this is so then they have bodged the fit ,the carpet would move about on the underlay almost certainly contributing to the  delanination through friction , you could have a defence against the claim.

From the pictures the secondary backing is synthetic and not Hessian...

But what do I know.

[JandS]

Download and save the image then zoom in on it and it does look like carpet not underlay.

[Andrew Briscoe]

it looks like a crum rubber underlay to me, difficult to tell though.

[Tony Rowley]

Guys, guys lets not argue about it.

If you zoom in closely it does look like an upside down carpet, if you look closely at the edge you can see blue fibres, but I will find out as I have arranged to visit on friday afternoon so will take plenty of pictures and take up the carpet in some areas, especially under the wardrobe as it was not moved so hopefully that may help me if I can find the same problem under there!

Appreciate all your input, it has given me food for thought and a few different avenues to go down depending on what I find.

In all honesty this is what this forum is about and why it is such a great resource, carpet cleaners helping carpet cleaners.

I will report back on Friday, in the meantime, everyone have a great new year.

Tony

[Mike Halliday]

We're not arguing, just giving different opinions 

Daves point is very valid, might be worth 'settling out of court' if your excess is high, make sure they are aware that liability insurance in these cases are not like home insurance.

 they don't get new for old, they will get what the insurance company believes the carpet is worth making an allowance for age and wear & tear. if they think they will get a replacement they are in for a shock

[James Jacob]

"In all honesty this is what this forum is about and why it is such a great resource, carpet cleaners helping carpet cleaners."

Please can someone answer my questions in the other posts... (said whilst on knees, head lowered, hands up & together)

[Shaun_Ashmore]

You don't think the builders have had a leak and the water has travelled under the door? Why wouldn't the carpet and flooring be wet all over?

Shaun

[tony bish]

This is I would say crumb rubber underlay as Andrew pointed out .
I restretch and repair carpets and loads of delaminated carpets all the time and get calls from insurance companies to check claims  .Most carpets that delaminate do so when the backing is dry and brittle and to pull the backing away from a carpet when it has just occured even when wet  takes some doing so even if you had soaked it ,it would have taken a while to delaminate ,the glue is usually broken down when the drying process occurs and given the time scale you mention I would be very surprised if you did this in this short  period unless there was a problem to begin with .I would say there was an inherant problem with this carpet in the first place ,I have layed many of this type and they are prone to have a weak backing,also the fact that the fitters restretched a carpet when it was damp/wet could ...and I emphasize could have when stretching it into the door bar pulled the face of the carpet of the backing away from the backing if the pins on the stretcher were not fully extended ...that ones a long shot but has been known .My next port of call when I access would be to look at other rooms that have the same carpet ,if there are a number of rooms look at them as well as the first one could be off a different roll ,and inspect the backing for any signs of delamination or faults and especially the edges and if you see any then bingo .Like someone else pointed out the tell tell sign of an initial problem is delamination round the edges especially if they are not wet .A carpet fitter when he is cutting the edges to poke down will see the backing come away beforehand ,it is far more common than you think and he is certainly not going to tell the customer and have to refit it later .If you dont feel comfortable taking up carpets yourself pay a fitter it will take him no time to lift carpet and restretch back on .Best of luck mate and sorry this was so long winded   

[Ian Gourlay]

One Hell of a problem

Makes you think its a Minefield every time you clean a carpet

Problems often awise on Carpets when you go the extra mile like clearing Builders Debris

This was the starting point

Personaly I would not think Carpet is worth more than £50 plus fitting cost

Are you in NCCA because I believe one of the Directors has qualified as a Carpet Inspector   according to his Web Site

[Doug Holloway]

Hi Guys

Delamination may well be down to a manufacturing defect if the adhesive wasn't correctly applied.

Questions

Did it delaminate as it was being pulled up, this could be because it had adhered to the substrate or whatever else it was layed on.

Obviously if you can find delamination in an area where there is no evidence of water marking then this will be pretty conclusive.

A piece you haven't cleaned showing delamination would of course be perfect.

Is the floor concrete, the alkalinity can destroy adhesive bonds?

Cheers

Doug

[Tony Rowley]

Well I went to see the customer this afternoon and it pretty much played out the way I thought it would.

Just to clear up the underlay is blue crumb rubber.

So on inspecting the carpet I found that 2.5 sides of the room appears to be glued down and I couldnt, and did not want to try and rip it up to inspect it. It is as it appears in the original pictures, the delamination is apparent around the edges for between 4 - 8 inches deep around the door and the corner and then appears to stop! I moved the wardrobe and it was not delaminated there.

We discussed other possible reasons for the delamination which he was not particularly interested and is adiment that one way or another he will be getting a new carpet from me even to the point of saying "if your insurance wont pay out dont think that will be the end of it, I will take you to the small claims court for the money"

Something, and I cannot believe I have only just remembered it, when we went to clean he said that sometimes his boy hides in his bedroom and wees behind the door, doubt he will now admit to saying that though.

The carpet is from John Lewis and is £22.00 psqm coming to £281.60 and then fitting is £100.00, not a massive amount of money but his attitude makes me loathe to replace it in case its not my fault.

What to do, what to do?!

Tony

[Radek Jablonski]

if you lose in small claim court then your insurance will pay I would say
get opinion in writen from some carpet inspector

[Andrew Briscoe]

so basically it is de-laminated in the area that the fitter has lifted up and nowhere else, and everywhere else is
glued down solid, mmhh sounds like the fitter has had a bash at pulling up a heavily glued down carpet, maybe he ripped it, looking at it and retailed carpets in the past I wouldn't say it was worth 22msq, although J Lewis is a bit dearer than us paupers up north.
Ask to see the original invoice as you maybe able to get the same carpet cheaper elsewhere

[tony bish]

Tony this guy is a sh*ite ...we all come across them .If it was me I would fight my corner on principal and facts but then again I am a fitter and repairer as well, so would be easier for me .You have to ask yourself is it worth the hassle or not .
But I would bet on it being a problem with the carpet beforehand as all the signs are there ,did you take a fitter with you and have a look at other carpets .I know it is difficult especially when someone is slightly overpowering but you have got a right and it is not unreasonable to ask to inspect if he is asking you to pay out .
The fact that glue has been used to stick some edges as opose to gripper would indicate that either the fitters were not very good or he has cut corners and told them to just fit it regardless, so that in itself would be a grey area for a claim imo as you could argue that if it wasnt fitted properly and to a reasonable standard who is to say the carpet was not to a high standard and the fitting has contributed to the problem,it is a pity you did not know the guys who fitted it .Also some spray glues which I would hazard a guess the fitters used ,can in fact delaminate a carpet backing .Urine could and would have a detrimental effect also .But the reason I am pretty sure its a carpet defect as well as the other points, is under the wardrobe it is fine which points to constant walking and perhaps a office chair with castors making the problem worse in the walk areas as delamination happens over a period of time and if the backing was weak to begin with walking etc would have a detrimental effect on it ,there are many other reasons but too many to go into .  This does stink of contradiction on his part and arrogance in expecting you to toe the line because he says so ,but you have to ask yourself is it worth the hassle .In my experience peole who are surly and bordering on rude are usually the least likely to be truthful as they feel bullying is their only answer not pure facts .If I did pay for it though I would also keep my dignity and explain that even though I am paying I certainly dont accept responsibility but am doing it for customer relations and proffesionalism .Good luck mate and keep us posted .    

[Doug Holloway]

Hi Guys

I think Tony Bish is spot on.

Why is it your fault just because you cleaned it.

The onus of proof is on him not you.

Cheers

Doug