[Tony Rowley]

Received this email on Saturday regarding a carpet I cleaned on the 22nd:

" I am contacting you in relation the carpets you cleaned at the above address on 22 December.  Unfortunately, at least the carpet in our middle bedroom has been water damaged.  We had carpets fitted elsewhere in the house and the carpet fitters needed to lift the carpet in the middle bedroom. This revealed that the carpet in the middle room has been delaminated.  The carpet fitters' view was that too much water had been used and that it was not possible to repair the carpet.  We may have a similar problem with the other bedroom carpets but we would need to lift them to find out.  For the time being, please just consider this as being a notification in relation to middle bedroom.  The carpet in the middle bedroom was only fitted about 6 months ago so we do think that the damage could have been caused by anything else.

I have attached pictures of the middle room carpet.  As you will see, it is clear that the carpet is delaminated.  You will also see the area which seems to have had too much water applied to it (there is clearly a patch that had much more water applied than the rest of the carpet).  The carpet fitters have tacked the top layer of the carpet into the door bar as a temporary measure but there is already bunching and movement where the top layer is now detached from the backing.

We will need to have the carpet replaced and expect the cost to be met by you or your insurer so please can you let me know how you would like to proceed?"

 I have never been presented with this problem before and I will be passing this to my insurers to deal with but wanted to ask is it possible/probable that I have caused the problem? would the carpet delaminate in 24 hours?

Any thoughts appreciated.

Tony

[Hilton]

Does look like its been over wet, clearly the carpet fitter told them about delamination they would not ordinarily know that term.

Cheap carpet poorly constructed, as this is, with a weak backing adhesive can break down pretty quickly especially with moisture, aggressive use of the wand on soiled areas and time.

Looks like you may have a a claim on your hands but of course you are perfectly at liberty to have it inspected yourself, maybe pay a visit, see if other areas are still damp or delaminating and if they are holds your hands and admit it, you can still win the situation around with good after service.

You never know you might be able to trace it back to a radiator pipe under the boards or similar, we had this with a pipe under concrete on the ground floor of a house, carpet fitter accused us of over wetting, on inspection I found he had tacked the carpet rods down under the rad and straight into a pipe, when he should have used adhesive knowing that pipes were underground.

[Mike Halliday]

They only became aware of it due to the carpet fitter lifting the carpet?, then how can they say it was not pre-existing?

They would not know if the carpet was in that condition prior to you cleaning it, it could have been caused by over stretching when originally fitted, the presence of water marks is not a sign of over wetting.

Thier whole opinion of the situation is just that..... their opinion. Also who made the carpet fitter the expert on water damage or carpet de-lamination again he is just giving his opinion.

[Hilton]

Yeah but you know with no other obvious signs of cause, ie no other leaks the claim will be cut & dried in the customers favour and denying it and arguing the case will not benefit anyone.

You could go down the route of a poor specification of carpet for the usage, which again they would lose, or even carpet fault as it should still be under warranty but again the supplier and manufacturer will deny any claim against them given the evidence.

Unless of course you could prove the fitter supplied directly an inferior product which they have been known to do having bought stock on the cheap, in other words it was already delaminating.

If the carpet is delaminating in other areas of the property that were not cleaned or very lightly cleaned then you will have a case, once again it involves a visit and inspection of all areas.

Just act professionally what ever the outcome.

[DB]

It looks a bit more than just over wetting to me....more like a water leak.

I have seen carpets leaving the retailer to be fitted showing signs of delamination especially in the colder months.

[Doctor Carpet (Ret'd)]

Tony

What sort of a machine do you have? Porty or truckmount?

The reason I ask is that a few years ago, I parked my porty (Ninja) in a lounge whilst cleaning the rest of the house (before getting to the lounge).

Unbeknownst to me my machine was leaking copious amounts of water which left a severe damp patch on the lounge carpet which was not detectable whilst then cleaning the lounge carpet.

The carpet was a high quality heavy traffic 80:20 large patterned. When the carpet dried out whilst there was no shrinkage or delamination or physical damage there was a distinct watermark which I was unable to diminish to an acceptable level-and ended up claiming on my insurance for a new carpet.

I'm guessing you didn't have your machine in this bedroom but I recount this story simply to further the discussion and give others food for thought about damp patches occurring during cleaning which you are unaware of.

Rog

[Simon Gerrard]

Carpet fitters are always quick to blame carpet cleaners, but that doesn't neccassariy mean they are right in their appraisal of the situation, that's point one.
Point two is that carpets like that delaminate with age and usage and could well have been in that state prior to cleaning and cleaning has brought the problem to the fore.
For you to be liable you would had to be reasonably expected to foresee the problem in advance of cleaning and while that isn't possible you are only obliged to take professional care when carrying out the work.
It would be worth asking how long the carpet took to dry as this is an indication as to how wet the carpet was left. If you don't spill anything or have a machine leak and cleaned the whole carpet exactly the same, how come just one area has delaminated?
It could well be that it is a poorly constructed carpet where the slightest moisture has been the last straw and caused the delamination, which otherwise might not have occurred.
If you know you overwet or flooded the carpet then by all means hold your hands up and do what is right, but a customer acting as an expert on the back of comments by someone who knows nothing about carpet cleaning doesn't necassaril make them right.
Btw, the second picture of the corner of the carpet doesn't look as if it is water damaged and the delamination could be a manufacturing fault.

Simon

[Tony Rowley]

Thanks for your replies guys.

Mike: That was my thoughts, there was no other indications of any problems until the fitter lifted the carpet, which he would have needed to do as there has previously been a runner in on the landing so the existing door bar was not suitable for a fitted carpet, why he then decided to pull up half the room is beyond me!

Hilton: Yes the area showing does appear to be a touch over wet as the water has gone through to the underlay but thats only because he was adement that this was (as well as being the main walkway) particualrly dirty due to them having had building works done and dust/debris getting under the door, it was not however overly wet to touch. In another picture that he sent me there are items on the floor that would suggest to me that it was at least touch dry for toys, changing mat etc to be placed on it.

Rog: I use a powrflite porty which IMO is great and it was on the ground floor and the room was on the first so no significent loss of suction power, but as a talking point your right and its always a good idea to have some kind of protection under your machine when its in any carpeted room although not applicable in this particular case.

Simon: Thanks for your comments, I always wonder where our liability ends, surely if you have checked the carpet is properly fitted, is suitable for cleaning using the process you use then what more can you do!

I posted this because I thought it may be helpful to someone else in the future who has the same problem.

As I said I will pass this on the my insurers as I find this is the best way to proceed, I could go back and talk to the customer but from the email I get the feeling that he is now a "carpet expert" and will not accept any reason I give him for it being another underlying problem. I also find that they will probably accept a third party giving them a decision even if its not in their favour.

Thanks again for your input.

Tony

[Carpet Dawg]

I bet you it was fitted a lot longer than 6 months ago.

Do you remember if the carpet was the carpet fitted properly before you cleaned it? i.e. flush to the skirting boards etc
Did it ripple slightly after you cleaned it?

What was the reason for lifting the carpet?

I find it hard to believe that a carpet cleaner with your machine would over wet a carpet to the point of delamination. You would have to really go out of your way to leave the carpet soaking to cause that type of damage.

[JandS]

My last carpet clean of the year on Tuesday had already delaminated not 6 months after fitting and before I cleaned it.
The owner said it was the second time they had replaced this carpet since moving in...the previous one had done the same and delaminated for no apparent reason.....the carpet firm replaced it for free.
She had me clean it even though it was faulty and was going to get back to the carpet firm again after Xmas.

I replaced the carpet in my computer room last year and within weeks it was off the grippers....it was a pp and the carpet supplier said I had shrunk it when cleaning it...I said it has never been cleaned and probably wouldn't shrink anyway no matter how much I overwet it...he then relented when he realised he didn't know what he was talking about and replaced it.......6 months down the line and it's off the grippers again...poor fitting.

[Carpet Master]

Well if I can put my pennies worth in.

The first picture, the carpet isn't even fitted on a proper underlay. It looks like an up-turned old carpet (you can see where they have used the d/s tape in strips to secure it previously). Looks to be worse because of this.

The fitter is right, no amount of stretching can rectify a massive amount of delamination, however if it is only a small area then glue can be injected using a syringe.

Any more pictures?

[Hilton]

It is on underlay, they have also laid it on top of Hessian paper which is an indication that they have previously had problems with draught marks.

By the way if delaminate a carpet through your own neglect then you own it, whether large area or not.

[Steve Chapman]

Tony,

You really should go back, even if you cant do anything or persuade otherwise it at least shows youre professional. If you just pass onto insurance without seeing it it looks like you didnt know what you were doing and will make them think youre a cowboy.

You cant get a true picture of a situation from an email and pictures, its amazing how different things look or what you notice when youre there in person.

Just my opinion but I would go back and at least see whats what !

Steve

[Andrew Briscoe]

Going off the second pic showing a corner, I would say it is a fault with the carpet. Check to see if underlay is damp or water stained in that area, if not I would put it down to carpet manufacturing fault as it looks pooe.
As stated best to go and inspect it and see what else you can find, because I can not see how you could of done that much damage with out having a major spillage, how many pre spray that much into a corner anyway.

If the same carpet is elsewhere in the house, lift it too and inspect the backing.
i would admit nothing until I had inspected, it may of course be your fault 

[CleanerCarpets]

Tony - i feel for you, what a poope email to get the day after Boxing day

I totally agree with the last 2 comments, dont just accept an email as proof and pass straight to your insurers. I know its horrible dealing with this but the worst case scenario is it goes to your insurers so dont get it to that stage without going to look first.

Some details seem out of place - firstly, if a customer is emailing and not calling why is that so? Most people with a genuine grievance will call, those who are a trying it on will often go for the email approach so they dont have to talk to you direct. A photo can't show the full story. Also, if you cleaned them on the 22nd, why and when has she had some replaced since then? she emailed you on the 27th so that means the day after Boxing day she is having new carpet fitted!? And why have they had to lift the carpet in the middle of a bedroom that isnt being replaced?

poope carpet does delaminate - especially if its had certain types of chairs on it. She said it was especially dirty in that area as building work was done - but the carpet is only 6 months old? So that means that carpet was down when the building work was done - why would you put a new carpet down and then have building work? Doesnt make sense - does she actually mean someone peed on the carpet there, or water was spilt there or something went on there she didnt want to reveal but she knew it had happened there and thats actually what delaminated the carpet not you.

I wouldnt of thought delam would happen so quickly unless solvents were used and if it was from over wetting the room would stink of damp. Is she saying the underlay was wet?

I would take a carpet fitter with me and go look. If you dont know one do a Google search or call a local carpet shop and chuck a fitter £20 to go with you. I would email back and tell the customer you need to inspect the area and you are taking an independent fitter with you and see what they say.

But i am suspecting you may have already given it to your insurers?

[Tony Rowley]

The carpet fitters were in on the 23rd, the day after I cleaned, as I said earlier he would have needed to change the door bar on the bedroom carpet as the one that was there was not suitable to join 2 fitted carpets. Probably they didnt want to email me straight away as it was christmas

The building work was being done in the house but I guess they were saying that the dust/debris had been sucked under the gap of the door.

This isnt the first job I have done for them, I cleaned for them in their previous property so I dont think he is deliberately trying it on I think he has just been quickly over-educated by the carpet fitter who possibly could have been the person who supplied and fitted that carpet as well so would be reluctant to give any other reason for the delamination.

He always communicates by email and even copies in his wife! so no surprise he didnt call me, I guess he is one of those people who likes a paper trail.

No I have not passed it to my insurers yet, instead I am trying to arrange to pop round later this week and take a look for myself.

Thanks again for all your helpful comments.

Tony

[Doctor Carpet (Ret'd)]

Just remembered another job I once attended.

I was called in I forget the exact reason-possibly because of an odour in a bedroom.

Getting to grips with the issue we discovered the carpet was positively damp under the bed.

As to why it was damp we decided that the only way of finding out was to lift the carpet to fully see what was going on rather than just drying the carpet out with a snail and then applying Clensan etc.

This involved having to remove all the furniture in the room (which was smallish and very cluttered).

Anyway having finally lifted the carpet we discovered why the carpet was damp. At some point (we think it was the carpet fitter) had for some reason put a tack through the carpet-and where he had nailed it it had gone through a waterpipe just under the boarding!!

A fluke accident undoubtedly, but at least it explained why the carpet was getting progressively soggy and odourous.

Turned out to be a well paid job for us in the final analysis-and lots of brownie points for our professional approach.

Rog

[Carpet Master]

It is on underlay, they have also laid it on top of Hessian paper which is an indication that they have previously had problems with draught marks.

By the way if delaminate a carpet through your own neglect then you own it, whether large area or not.

No, the carpet is made like that with a thin layer of hessian glued to the carpet backing. That carpet is fitted on top of an old carpet which is not to BS therefore you should not be responsible for it's damage. There should have been a proper underlay.

[Hilton]

No, the underlay is laid on top of Hessian paper (or similar) the carpet also does not have a Hessian backing.

When you go back take lots of pics and try and find out , as I mentioned before, if the fitters supplied the carpet. They will have to produce their invoice anyway for insurance so ask for a copy.

[Dave_Lee]

Before contacting your insurers, check what the amount of your excess. Mine like many others is £500.. If the value of the carpet is less than that, there is no point in letting your insurers know about it.
Dave.