[slap bash]

Is this not the point when you all turn on Ash as his idea is revolutionary. CIU members don`t like revolutionaries.

[Griffus]

Pie I the sky, we'll you may all be right. I am planning to start when my own work can safely sustain another persons wage and enough to live on myself which at present is £25 per day and I live happily on that. I have put this in much more detail to my accountant and at first he thought I was mad but when he went through the idea and figures he admitted that it would work as long as I found the right person and as said we don't have six foot of snow for three months. I have a budget to build this and at the point where it threatens the business as a whole it will be stopped. I have faith in human nature and to Tosh, I've read Maslows theory on hierarchy of need and the updated version and also his idea of the qualities of a self-actualiser and believe it or not many of those qualities describe me but I'm nowhere near there yet.
It's an idea I've been thinking of since I started the business and it has evolved and probably evolve more. It may never happen or it could happen by April who knows.
Finally there is a theory that if you think of how it could succeed instead of how it could fail then you can see it differently. I sincerely hope I'm right and if I'm not then I'll be posting on here for a job.

Gerald, I wouldn't normally get involved this much but here are a few basic questions for you (no need to answer, just think about them): -
What level of experience with either employing directly, via sub-contractor or even just senior man management via a previous employment?

How will you recruit?  Experienced window cleaners fall into any of a few of categories. Self employed with own round, business owner - employing, working for a cleaning firm or window cleaning firm.  If you aren't established you will struggle to find good staff.

How will you manage your people.  What targets and objectives will you set.   How will you monitor performance, quality, attendance etc.... 

Do you work a two man team already?

How will you cover holidays? Minimum 28 days per full time employee?

What about sickness?

What level of capital do you have?   Cashflow can finish you off.

What is your average revenue per year and month for the past five years.

Where are the new sources of revenue?   If already covering why change?

How will you finance the purchase / lease of the vans?

How will you insure the vans (zero no claims, named driver, any driver over 25, clean licence, 6 points....)?
What level of equipment will each van have? WFP or Trad?  Ladders, roof rack, signwriting?


You keep going on about Maslow.   To be honest I think there are other more relative theories you could make use of.   Maslow is used by larger companies as part of management training to highlight and identify motivations. Whilst his hierarchy of needs or whatever it is called makes complete sense it will be of zero use to you in this scenario.

Your accountant is having a laugh.  I suspect he had just had enough of telling you "no chance" and you not listening, very much like on here.

I'm not saying don't give it a shot, I am saying if you do, and stick with your current plan, you WILL fail.   I think you'll fail before you even get started.

Just so you understand I'm not this huge pessimist trying to ruin your dreams.  I am speaking from experience.   I have managed multi million pound contracts within the logistics industry, I have taken part in courses and even presented a few on various management systems and techniques.  I have taken many workshops and team building events.   Following on from redundancy a few years back I took a wrong turn and ended up running a cleaning firm.   We have 12 direct employees and a number of sub-contractors.   Even though we have a solid team, we have a strong customer base and decent revenue streams and profit, I could not suceed with your plan.

Now, if you are still sure you can succeed with your plan, then go for it, it's yours to lose......

[sunshine windows]

Good luck to you Gerald,

You're going to need each van hitting a substantial amount of turnover to make it worthwhile, but no reason why it can't be done this way.

[Tom White]

You keep going on about Maslow.   To be honest I think there are other more relative theories you could make use of.   Maslow is used by larger companies as part of management training to highlight and identify motivations. Whilst his hierarchy of needs or whatever it is called makes complete sense it will be of zero use to you in this scenario.

Whenever (mostly) someone starts a post about motivating employees, it invariably revolves around how much they're going to be paid.

Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs (and many other studies) show that money is not the sole motivating factor.  Of course people need to be paid enough to ensure that they can live (the lower strata of the hierarchy), but there's much more to it.

David of St Ives - for example - used to ensure all his staff went on formal training courses.  I'm pretty sure Dean does the same too.  They invest in their staff and no doubt they feel valued because of it (feeling valued is higher up the strata than our basic needs).

My point is, it's not just money.  As for the rest of the stuff, sure Gerald will need to work it out, but I'm pretty sure - speaking as someone who has recovered from a life threatening addiction myself - that he needs to work himself out first.

[mlscontractcleaner]

Having read the original post and all of his replies to questions one thing puzzles me.

He's gone on and on about paying a great wage to his future employees yet never once said he's like a decent wage himself.

Now call me greedy but I work as hard as I do to make money for me; if employing someone didn't raise my profits I wouldn't do it.

You have to pay a decent wage but at the end of the day this is your business mate and you should be the one making the most out of it.

[SeanK]

Having read the original post and all of his replies to questions one thing puzzles me.

He's gone on and on about paying a great wage to his future employees yet never once said he's like a decent wage himself.

Now call me greedy but I work as hard as I do to make money for me; if employing someone didn't raise my profits I wouldn't do it.

You have to pay a decent wage but at the end of the day this is your business mate and you should be the one making the most out of it.

That's because he doesn't, even when he was at rock bottom he still wanted to give part of his takings to charity.
Gerald's motivation is to give a few people the chance of employment and still have a few quid
leftover to keep him going when he's no longer fit to do the job.
Maybe I wrong but I seem to remember him saying that he was never happy when he had money and has no wish to chase
after it again.
I honestly don't know if his plan will work but good luck to him.

[Gerald Ash]

Of course I`m making a lot more than £25 a day thats what I live on including rent, every penny over goes back to the business and I spend as little as possible.
 The plan is relatively simple. Kit out van at minimum cost, as stated about two grand including van, have contacts so can save a fair bit. My round will support a wage to start off with. I can take £100 in a morning if I go for it on my own so a younger fitter guy should do £150. The wage should cost me about sixty all in. That leaves £90 so say £10 for derv and another £10 for insurances and such. That leaves £70 which £35 goes to employee and £35 to me. The profit payment will be paid one month in arrears and my share will be put aside as I can live off of my round.
   You guys are thinking about your lives with perhaps mortgages and van leases and the like. I can save the cash and won`t need any loans.
 I have to buy a van in April costing £30,000 but I have a friend coming in with me on that so don`t think I`m doing that well.
As long as we can get the work it won`t be difficult. I have a good success rate on the doors as I average four to five new customers an hour when canvassing. Hope this clarifies some things. I do have  A level maths and took A level accountancy many years ago but forgotten most and they didn`t have computer software back then. I`m doing this to build myself a retirement fund so I live as cheaply as I can to build the business up. I`ve had loads of money in the past and wasted it.  I appreciate all comments as it gives me food for thought. As for the weight I was thirty-nine stone at last Christmas and at present weigh thirty stone eight pounds. Cheers guys.
 

[Gerald Ash]

I want to live not exist. This business is absolutely the best I`ve ever done. My history is running shoe repair, courier, car dealing and market trading. All those businesses were profitable but every penny was wasted on rubbish and when things went pear shaped at the end of the eighties I had no cushion to get through the bad patch. This time I save every single penny I can and live as cheaply as I can. Tosh, you speak of the money not being the only goal but it is a gateway to higher goals. This job offers very good money for those who want to work hard. Within that possibility a person can earn a living wage in a shorter time and have more time for his family and this plan can give someone that chance plus I earn a little bit more. As I`ve said they will have a set time to get into profit. It`s quite possible to work like hell in the morning, make enough for a reasonable bonus and plenty of time for other things.

[Ian Lancaster]

I made a basic mistake when I first employed:  I was like you, wanting to be as fair as possible to my employees so I set an upper turnover limit above which everything the employee turned over was his.  Below that figure I was paying them a percentage of the turnover.

What I hadn't realised was that I still had to pay employers liability, national insurance etc etc on all the money they earned above my limit.

I was paying that out of my share but the total I had to pay went up as their earnings went up but I wasn't getting any more!!

[Scrimble]

your making out your doing someone a favour employing them, like charity give a man a job etc

you forget there are people out there who go around with a chip on there shoulder looking to screw the boss out of everything, who think that the business owes them a favour for turning up on time.

some employee's take the p, they will cut corners lose you customers and be off like a shot without a care for something you have spent years building and ploughed thousands of pounds into,

some people are more interested in having a secure job, turning up in the morning and leaving at the end of the day without the burden of running a business, that is the bosses job and its the boss/owner who takes the profit, employees get wages

Gerald people get nasty when it comes to money and you sound as weak as they come, you will get screwed over, it will not be worth it and its got fail written all over it

[Perfect Windows]

   Franchises are a possibility but they are again complex and you have little control on people using your name.

You have a great deal of control over people using your name.  You trademark it and you own it; along with a watertight contract, you're covered.

If you want people who are motivated, who could be more motivated than someone who runs their own business under your name?  If you want your people to be content in what they do, let them be the owners of their own business.  Franchising sounds very much like something that would allow you to get you to what you're trying to achieve.

Vin

[Perfect Windows]

You keep going on about Maslow.   To be honest I think there are other more relative theories you could make use of.   Maslow is used by larger companies as part of management training to highlight and identify motivations. Whilst his hierarchy of needs or whatever it is called makes complete sense it will be of zero use to you in this scenario.

Whenever (mostly) someone starts a post about motivating employees, it invariably revolves around how much they're going to be paid.

Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs (and many other studies) show that money is not the sole motivating factor.  Of course people need to be paid enough to ensure that they can live (the lower strata of the hierarchy), but there's much more to it.

David of St Ives - for example - used to ensure all his staff went on formal training courses.  I'm pretty sure Dean does the same too.  They invest in their staff and no doubt they feel valued because of it (feeling valued is higher up the strata than our basic needs).

My point is, it's not just money.  As for the rest of the stuff, sure Gerald will need to work it out, but I'm pretty sure - speaking as someone who has recovered from a life threatening addiction myself - that he needs to work himself out first.

Here's a terrific presentation on why it's not just money. ten minutes long, so don't click if you don't have the attention span.  If you do, it's quirky, engaging and very educational.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc

Vin

[windowswashed]

If you want to build a nest egg for your future then work your tits off concentrating on getting really good prices and not average prices working yourself to death. I get 1 in 2 or 3 quotes I give and 1 in 3 are a waste of time quoting as too small or access problems, dodgy areas. I don't want to get every customer going, just the best ones suitable for my preferences.  Work hard and smart, save some money and invest in a run down property at auction and learn DIY and go college to do bricklaying, etc courses, they are not that expensive and good fun socialising with others. Bricks and mortar are the way forward regarding pensions. Put all your effort into letting your own property and you won't go wrong.

[Gerald Ash]

I do appear soft and gentle and in general I am but I do not  take carp and I can communicate very well and assertively and not bullying. The PROFIT is what I share not turnover that is not possible. If there is no profit they get basic wage which I can finance with my round. If it doesn`t work then it`ll be dropped or possibly sold to someone but I know it can work.
Also I will start it when I have enough in the bank to finance six months wages. 

[slap bash]

The problem with profit is it nett profit and gross profit. You gross is turn over and net earnings with out nothing to pay out except tax. Then its yours to spend as you wish. A few day accounting lessons would not go a miss.
I think what Ash is alluding to is profit shearing scheme, which is based on net profit and therefore after all expenses.

[Gerald Ash]

You should know all expenses your business will have for at least one month in advance. There are obviously unpredictable things like blown tyre or equipment breakdown and that`s why profit share will be paid one month in arrears. This way it`s unlikely there will be any inaccuracy in payments. Tax and N.I is set in stone and is not an issue. Targets will be set and must be met but on an average basis, ie average £80 per working day not including down days due to weather as that would be unfair.
 I hope this makes things clear, I have been a bit carp in explaining so sorry about that.

[NWH]

Down south you would be lucky to get anyone to work for £60 a day maybe while there learning the job but that would be about it,for manual work that's not good money you would have to offer a £150-200 weekly bonus if they hit target or they would be nicking from you at every chance they got. You need to pay them more than they can get doing something similar and make sure they have bills to pay that way they'll come in everyday or almost

[Gerald Ash]

The level of basic is a living wage as defined by the living wage foundation. If I pay £10 ph it will mean less profit to share as costs will be higher. Anyone successful will be made quite clear on the aims of the business. I will explain that their wage is a cost and will be deducted from the monies taken before bonus is paid.
 That is the whole point, I will share the profits which will come with effort on the employees part. Back to the hierarchy theme, they will be strongly motivated to build their round which is a great sense of achievement, I know it is for me. In affect it will be their business, they will benefit directly from their efforts plus when the weather is too bad to work they still have money coming in. Can anyone honestly say that when you can`t work it does not effect what you earn other times. Traders at Weston work the summer to live the winter. They could be earning £20 ph but take the winter into account they will have less than half of that rate in reality.
If the person applying for the job can`t understand this they are not suitable.

[SeanK]

The level of basic is a living wage as defined by the living wage foundation. If I pay £10 ph it will mean less profit to share as costs will be higher. Anyone successful will be made quite clear on the aims of the business. I will explain that their wage is a cost and will be deducted from the monies taken before bonus is paid.
 That is the whole point, I will share the profits which will come with effort on the employees part. Back to the hierarchy theme, they will be strongly motivated to build their round which is a great sense of achievement, I know it is for me. In affect it will be their business, they will benefit directly from their efforts plus when the weather is too bad to work they still have money coming in. Can anyone honestly say that when you can`t work it does not effect what you earn other times. Traders at Weston work the summer to live the winter. They could be earning £20 ph but take the winter into account they will have less than half of that rate in reality.
If the person applying for the job can`t understand this they are not suitable.

If a person wants to work for somebody else its because they don't want the responsibility or risks that comes from working for
yourself or don't have the confidence or finances needed to work for themselves.
So what your saying is your going to take all the risks supply all the equipment and financially support them while they are building
a round.
Then once your input is no longer needed you will still expect them to give you a cut indefinitely, make sure you get a well written
contract on this one.

[Gerald Ash]

Again if they build it to an exceptional level that is a risk. I would counter that with a higher cut of profits above a certain level. Perhaps if they exceed £200 a day then they keep whats over 200 less costs and tax/NI.
 At that level I should be getting approximately £50 a day which for doing very little isn`t bad I think. There are guys on here claiming £500 a day which you deduct the 50 percent bravado isn`t far short.