[stephensll5]

has anyone else heard that were not allowed to use ladders?? i heard yesterday that we have to use wfp systems but as im in the southeast i cant use that either becasue of the drought. only way i can fill up is if i drive out of my county to another one. ( e.g. southwest )

[steve k]

what`s it like in the outback this time of year...you must have just returned from a very long solo, find yourself trip...welcome home...by the way...we won the war you know...the second one!!

ps...do a search on "ladders" "work at heights" etc...should keep you in reading for the next month or so!!

[dish]

This is a hot topic and one that causes debate everytime.

check out this link to see what I mean.

http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=18916.0;all

if you look through the postings you will find loads about the drought orders too.

[rosskesava]

There's a lot of hot air about ladder usage or not as the case may be.

You can use a ladder provided you've done a risk assessment and are using some type of stabilising device and the work being done is of short duration after deciding that ladders are the way you chose to do the job.

If ladders are banned then why aren't wfp manufacturers using that exact statement in their advertising? Not some implied comment but these exact words:- LADDERS ARE BANNED

We've had a 'going over' from the council appointed HSE rep while we were doing a contract job with ladders and he was satisfied we were working within current legislation. The bloke wasn't there to check us out, he was there following complaints about some building work being done at height and decided to have a look at our method of working.

Also a ladder only needs to be secured at the top if the working at height is not temporary. It's a bit daft to have to go up the ladder to secure it to something to clean a window and then unsecure it. The H & S are not that thick. That would make the job even more risky. You'd have to go up the ladder, secure it, come down, go up, clean the window, come down and go up again to unsecure it and then come down again.

I don't know about the banning of window cleaning though due to a drought order for non essential work. It certainly won't mean that any legislation regarding ladders will be recinded.

If any order does come in stopping the cleaning of windows we'll stop using wfp, buy water from Asda's in 5ltr bottles and do what we can with trad methods.

[rosskesava]

you will still be able to clean with traditional methods though

Thanks for that bit of info.

Phew.....

[Philip Hanson]

If there is a drought order then yes you can use ladders

Unfortunately, no you can't.

Although the water companies would have no objection to the use of ladders and bucket for window cleaning, the WAH regs would be breached if you did a job from ladders that you have previously done with WFP.

Sched 6 of the regulations spell out the exact circumstances when it is permissable to use ladders, and "drought order" is not one of them.

This is the very reason why Southern Water (unlike Sutton & SE Surrey Water) did not argue that window cleaners could go back to using ladders.  After a risk assessment has concluded that WFP can be used for a particular building (or better yet, you have demonstrated by use that that the building can be done with WFP), using ladders is then in breach of the regulations.

This being the case, the DEFRA inspector who chaired the drought order hearing is likely to recommend a change in the wording of future drought order applications.

Instead, Southern Water concluded that water should be transported in if it were restricted.

The secretary of state has not yet ruled on the exact terms of the drought order, and having attended all of the hearings I am hopeful that the WAH regs will lead to a special dispensation for window cleaners.

It is also important to note that even if no dispensation is granted, WFP will not be affected until Phase 3 of the drought order.  The water companies made clear that if Phase 3 is necessary, the situation would be extremely serious and would almost certainly be followed by an emergency drought order (meaning standpipes etc).  They do not anticipate it will be necessary to engage phase 3, especially as average rainfall for the south east appears to be returning to normal now (March was the first month with "normal" rainfall for 14 months).

Even with all of that, there are some very simple measures window cleaners can take to make sure that they comply legally with the drought order, whatever form it may take, and continue to use WFP.

-Philip

[stephen.b1]

part of the regulations is you should do a risk assesment and in that risk assesment you have to consider the tools you have available to do the job. if there is a drout order then you will not have the water for the wfp  so this tool can not be in the assesment what you do have is a pole you could attach a back-flip to 

[rosskesava]

Philip

Thanks for that bit of usefull information.

I've phoned, written and e mailed Southern Water to try and get something tangible and clear from them but all I got was the usual non specific non commital type of reply that said nothing really.

So it would be phase 3 of the drought order which is more than unlikely. It would mean less than 30% of the total summer rain fall than we got last year for that to happen and as the models are predicting quite a wet summer...

Phew again.

[Paul Coleman]

If there is a drought order then yes you can use ladders

Unfortunately, no you can't.

Although the water companies would have no objection to the use of ladders and bucket for window cleaning, the WAH regs would be breached if you did a job from ladders that you have previously done with WFP.

Sched 6 of the regulations spell out the exact circumstances when it is permissable to use ladders, and "drought order" is not one of them.

This is the very reason why Southern Water (unlike Sutton & SE Surrey Water) did not argue that window cleaners could go back to using ladders.  After a risk assessment has concluded that WFP can be used for a particular building (or better yet, you have demonstrated by use that that the building can be done with WFP), using ladders is then in breach of the regulations.

This being the case, the DEFRA inspector who chaired the drought order hearing is likely to recommend a change in the wording of future drought order applications.

Instead, Southern Water concluded that water should be transported in if it were restricted.

The secretary of state has not yet ruled on the exact terms of the drought order, and having attended all of the hearings I am hopeful that the WAH regs will lead to a special dispensation for window cleaners.

It is also important to note that even if no dispensation is granted, WFP will not be affected until Phase 3 of the drought order.  The water companies made clear that if Phase 3 is necessary, the situation would be extremely serious and would almost certainly be followed by an emergency drought order (meaning standpipes etc).  They do not anticipate it will be necessary to engage phase 3, especially as average rainfall for the south east appears to be returning to normal now (March was the first month with "normal" rainfall for 14 months).

Even with all of that, there are some very simple measures window cleaners can take to make sure that they comply legally with the drought order, whatever form it may take, and continue to use WFP.

-Philip

Although a drought order would not legally change the circumstances in which ladders could be used Philip, if WFP gets banned, I would risk the wrath of the HSE by reverting to ladders for the duration of any possible WFP ban.  Probably illegal but it would be severely impractical to transport water into the region for WFP use for several reasons (with which I'm sure you are well acquainted).  Although I have been using WFP since last October, I haven't yet "converted" my business to be particularly dependent upon it.  This may be a wrong way about going about things but as with many other people, my alternative is definite bankruptcy and possible homelessness.  Although it is possible to lose my life and/or my health by using ladders, I would regard the general risk to be low enough to take my chances. It's a sad state of affairs when someone has to evaluate which law to break in order to earn an honest living.  Damned if I do and damned if I don't.  It's the degree of possible damnation that I will have to assess.

I may be wrong about this but I don't have any real trust in the water companies' "phasing in" of a drought order.  Although they did moderate their tone with each passing meeting, I am still very mindful of the Sutton & East Surrey guy's words about "hitting everybody at once" possibly somewhere around the end of April.  I believe that this supposed phasing in was a red herring with which they hoped to seduce the hearing inspector.  Fortunately, that legal guy representing IMO made it totally clear as to what could happen.

[Paul Coleman]

It's a sad state of affairs when someone has to evaluate which law to break in order to earn an honest living.  d**ned if I do and d**ned if I don't.  It's the degree of possible d**nation that I will have to assess.

Oops !!.  I didn't realise that word was censored  .  Is this forum hosted on American servers by any chance?