[Tom-01]

Hi guys

I have a two man system with two pumps. One is run by a analog controller the other is digital. I have a split charge relay coming from the main battery.

The pump with the digital controller started cutting out and saying 'bat' if we were on jobs which take a bit of time, when I turned the engine on and left it running it was fine.

The other day the analog controller started cutting out and the battery light was flashing. So I have replaced the battery with a brand new one. Both pumps work and neither cut out but the flow rate on digital pump is really low even if I turn it up to 60. Does anyone know what could cause this? Could it be a problem with the pump, or controller?

Thanks
Tom

[Smudger]

Re-calibrated the digital one ?

Had your original problem on one of my vans, changed the batt, after a week same thing happened again, changed the split charge no difference, removed the split relay out altogether and now runs all day without losing battery power

Darran

[Tom-01]

Someone else said it could be the split charge relay. I live in a flat so its difficult to run a lead out to the van, and the battery is difficult to get out all the time.

Its strange how its always the the pump with the digital controller though..?

[Smudger]

They are more sensitive - where poss try to take the van for a 20min drive

Darran

[Ian Sheppard]

Hi guys

I have a two man system with two pumps. One is run by a analog controller the other is digital. I have a split charge relay coming from the main battery.

The pump with the digital controller started cutting out and saying 'bat' if we were on jobs which take a bit of time, when I turned the engine on and left it running it was fine.

The other day the analog controller started cutting out and the battery light was flashing. So I have replaced the battery with a brand new one. Both pumps work and neither cut out but the flow rate on digital pump is really low even if I turn it up to 60. Does anyone know what could cause this? Could it be a problem with the pump, or controller?

Thanks
Tom

Hi Tom another post relates to your question http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=190119.0

The controllers will warn of low battery at 11V and cut out the pump at 10.5V. We do this as taking a battery below 10.5V regularly will damage the cells the following has a number of links that may be of help. http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=190119.0

The reason for this is in how the battery produces current. Under load (current being drawn) The Sulphur and lead acid react to create the current. During depletion the battery cells become covered in a lead sulphate. Recharging the battery breaks this back into Lead and Sulphur.  Repeatedly taking a battery below the 10.5V (or approx 50% of the battery current capacity) can cause some of this lead sulphur to crystallize and hardens.
This in turn restricts the battery ability to hold a charge. We are all familiar with an older battery not lasting as long after a charge as a new one. Sulphation of the battery cells is the reason why this happens.

As a General rule I would suggest you need a battery as near 13V at the start of a day as possible.

You also need to take into account that a split relay will not necessarily replace all the amps you use during the day. The Alternator will only be trickle charging the leisure battery and even then the alternator is powering all the vehicle systems first with the leisure battery getting only the remaining current.

As in the other post what is the size AH of the battery and what are the flow and calibration settings?

[Tom White]

I use a three-year-old battery with two diy pump controllers that cost about a fiver each.  They never muck me around, they never let me down; they're class.

Get one of these:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/12-40V-10A-Pulse-Width-Modulator-PWM-DC-Motor-Speed-Switch-Control-Controller-UK-/291170946150?pt=UK_BOI_Industrial_Automation_Control_ET&hash=item43cb240c66

It's dead easy to wire up (even a Geordie can do it).

Just stick it in some kind of box; I used a plastic box that you would put into a plastered wall to fit an electrical socket into it.  I also put a £2 switch from Wikos on it to turn it on 'n' off (not sure if that was needed though).

It looks like a small terrorist detonation device, but it works like a dream.

Or you can fork out £100 for a sensitive over-engineered bit of kit that will mess you about, make you keep on buying leisure batteries, and then go 'kaput' after 18 months.

[Tom-01]

Thanks for your help guys. I spent a while mucking about with it today and it seemed to fix itself, although I'm not holding out much hope.. I think I might disconnect the split charge relay and go back to charging the battery overnight again.

[rosskesava]

I'm with Tosh on this.

Keep things simple and cheap.

I also use a voltage regulator and have used the same one for nearly 5 years which works out at less than £2 a year.

I also charge the battery each night and have had the same battery for 4 years or maybe a bit longer.

For me, electronic gizmo's like a flow controller are an expensive way to do something very simple and going by the frequent posts on here about having problems with them and split relay chargers, I do without them.

[Tom-01]

Yeah I agree.

I got the split relay charger because I moved to a top floor flat so I can't charge from here and at the moment I can't leave the van at my works yard, so it's a pain having to disconnect and core connect the battery all the time. Should be upgrading unit to fit van in as well so should solve the problem.

[rosskesava]

Yeah I agree.

I got the split relay charger because I moved to a top floor flat so I can't charge from here and at the moment I can't leave the van at my works yard, so it's a pain having to disconnect and core connect the battery all the time. Should be upgrading unit to fit van in as well so should solve the problem.

I live 14 floors up.

I have two 28amp electric wheel chair batteries which are perfect for a water pump. I alternate between using and charging them and I always have both in the van, if that makes sense. I use one, and charge it that night. The other stays in the van and gets used the next day and then that gets charges that night, and so on.

One is anything but too heavy to carry up and down each night/morning. Even carrying two isn't a real problem.

I've only twice ever used one untill it's almost flat.

[Ian Sheppard]

I read with interest some of the comments. Clearly there is general support for the use of electronically controlling pump speed and reducing load on a pump and current draw from the battery.

A voltage regulator provides a constant pre set voltage to a DC device. It is electronically adjusting the voltage to the pump.
Our approach is to use PWM. In our configuration it is a more efficient way of controlling the pump motor as less battery energy is wasted to heating the components.
http://www.irf.com/pressroom/articles/463bps0708.pdf

Are our controllers over engineered or have they developed according to the needs of the market? The do certainly have a number of safety and protection features not found in other controls.

As for lots of threads re controller faults. In the majority of the cases the controller is providing information with the source of the issue being elsewhere within a system.
Are they expensive? When taking into account the cost of replacing a pump pressure switch and the down time to replace it, time building a DIY controller. Plus the savings of water, battery power, resins ect absolutely not.
The variety of electronic methods used to control a pump, plus controllers being fitted to the vast majority of
manufactured systems would suggest they are good value.

There are large numbers of V3 - V6 and V9 controllers in use day in day out several years after their manufacture. We offer full ongoing support for the whole range of controls. Development is driven by the needs of the market.
A good example is adding volt meters, Low battery voltage cut off and the cut off over ride on the latest units.

It is about personal choice as what suits one person would not suit another.

[Ian Sheppard]

Other controllers lack the features of a more sophisticated controller. They :

- Do not stop and warn when the battery voltage is too low and further use will permanently damage your battery and cause added expense
- Do not give battery voltage at the flick of a button
- Do not control as efficiently as a our controller, which makes your battery power go further! (They lose energy mostly through heat)
- Do not work at the most efficient frequency for the pump (meaning the pump loses yet more energy through heat and noise)
- Cannot provide added benefits and features, like TDS, hot water system control, radio control, tank filling and water production control

An analogue voltage regulator is massively less efficient than a professional controller. This is because in dropping the voltage across the voltage regulator the change in voltage generates a huge amount of wasted energy in heat. If dropping the voltage from 12V to 6V (half speed) at 6A, this is 36W lost in heat across the regulator. The loss here is 3A potentially do this for an hour and this is 3Ahr you are using for no pump action!"

Put another way if you are running a 75Ahr battery with a pump taking 6A, then this in theory means you are losing one third of your battery power and working time in heat! So instead of working for a theoretical  maximum of 12.5 hrs your can only work for 8.33 hrs. In practice it can turn out to be a lower working time as we know, but the affect is the same. So with our controller you may get 6 hrs of work, but with an equivalent cheap controller you will probably get only 4 hours of work. And you may end up damaging your battery in the process.

The other problem is that heat is the enemy of all electronic products. It shortens the product life and in the worst case can cause a fire risk. Our controllers are designed to run as cool and efficiently as possible, saving energy, increasing run time, increasing the product life.

Some other controllers while being lower cost are, low efficiency, potential fire hazard, burning battery energy for very little gain. While a cheap voltage regulator is a solution. This is still a pump controller, but just not a very sophisticated one and will not suit some.

[Tom White]

Other controllers lack the features of a more sophisticated controller. They :

- Do not stop and warn when the battery voltage is too low and further use will permanently damage your battery and cause added expense
- Do not give battery voltage at the flick of a button
- Do not control as efficiently as a our controller, which makes your battery power go further! (They lose energy mostly through heat)
- Do not work at the most efficient frequency for the pump (meaning the pump loses yet more energy through heat and noise)
- Cannot provide added benefits and features, like TDS, hot water system control, radio control, tank filling and water production control

I only want something robust that controls my flow that doesn't mess me about.  I suspect that's what most window cleaners want; hence the £5 one from e-bay does it for me.

[Ian Sheppard]

As I say Horses for courses, What works for and suits you is fine. Many want something more.

[prestige cleaners]

im having the same problems, i cured it by changing the cables, they were getting hot and melting into the copper wire, i think its after doing really long jobs.

[Ian Sheppard]

Cables getting excessively hot can be caused by corroded/damaged connectors/cable and or loose connections.

Worn cable will provide a higher resistance to current than well maintained cable, most noticeably the connections themselves . Worn connections also increases the amount of volt drop (lost energy) causing hotspots where heat builds up.
Over time this lost energy through heat will cause the temperatures to gradually increase, this is accelerated if the pump is running harder. The temp increase continues to a point where plastic outer cable may melt.

Our controllers are designed to minimise wasted energy and in doing so reduce heat build up. The controllers have a number of built in features designed to protect the system in fault conditions.

Fitting a correctly rated fuse close to the battery forms an important part of protecting the electrical system.

[rosskesava]

As I say Horses for courses, What works for and suits you is fine. Many want something more.

Sorry Ian, but what more could you want than a pump that always works and a very simple, easy and cheap means to vary the flow rate?

I don't get it. I've been using the same cheap simple system for over 5 years without a single problem and I've been using the same battery for 4 years. (Actually 2 of them only because of the weight of having just one battery and having to cart it indoors to charge each night.)

And I've had the same over worked pump for 7 years.

Every week on here are postings about flow controller problems.

[Ian Sheppard]

As I say Horses for courses, What works for and suits you is fine. Many want something more.

Sorry Ian, but what more could you want than a pump that always works and a very simple, easy and cheap means to vary the flow rate?

I don't get it. I've been using the same cheap simple system for over 5 years without a single problem and I've been using the same battery for 4 years. (Actually 2 of them only because of the weight of having just one battery and having to cart it indoors to charge each night.)

And I've had the same over worked pump for 7 years.



Every week on here are postings about flow controller problems.

Whether some one uses a spring manufactured control or an alternative.  The point I consistently make is that electronically controlling a pump will improve the efficiency of the system through reduced battery current draw, as the pump is turning slower.
Broadly it would seem you agree with this approach as you use a electronic voltage regulator to control the pump

The regulator is a basic pump controller and this works for you, and you see no need for any thing more that a more sophisticated control can offer.
The Fact is large numbers of people do want to be able to see voltage or have additional protections built in. Over the 9 years we have been producing controls the driver for development has been the market and the people using the control.

All products develop and evolve with time to be more efficient our current controllers are a giant leap on form the V1 analogue. Much of the development has been in engineering in protection features that most will never know are even there. 

With Our control for example if there is a electrical fault in the pump or cabling the controller will cut power to the pump and display PS. Why would we choose to do that? Because if you continue to feed current to the fault it will simply heat up, with the risk of burning cables.

This is just one of the protections we build in to the control. that a voltage regulator does not have. Our electronics are enclosed in an IP65 rated box to protect the electronic from water.
Another would be the control will shut down the pump if high current is detected rather than feeding a fault condition.
Yes there are regular posts regard controllers which I support. On occasion it is a competitor product i will give advise on. In the majority of cases the problem is not the controller but rather the controlling providing information. For example as above PS displaying due to cable fault.

 

[Tom White]

Yeh, same here, Wossy, cheap, simple, effective; doesn't mess me about.

Ian might be to blind me with science - I'm no electrician - but I know what works from my experience.

A fiver for a robust flow controller that doesn't mess me about; magic.  I guess I've got a resentment about flow controllers because my first two didn't last a year, they messed me about, they forced me to buy new batteries (when I didn't need them; still using the old ones now with my fiver flow controller); and they're so simple even a Geordie can use them.

There's also a business story about a gadget that was really popular, but the engineers added lots of other stuff to it and made it too complex, and it failed.

Work calls so can't say more.

Have a good day all.

[Ian Sheppard]

Yeh, same here, Wossy, cheap, simple, effective; doesn't mess me about.

Ian might be to blind me with science - I'm no electrician - but I know what works from my experience.

A fiver for a robust flow controller that doesn't mess me about; magic.  I guess I've got a resentment about flow controllers because my first two didn't last a year, they messed me about, they forced me to buy new batteries (when I didn't need them; still using the old ones now with my fiver flow controller); and they're so simple even a Geordie can use them.

There's also a business story about a gadget that was really popular, but the engineers added lots of other stuff to it and made it too complex, and it failed.

Work calls so can't say more.

Have a good day all.

Products evolve we all have changed TV, PC. Mobile phones ect because they get smaller, faster, better camera what ever it is that someone looks for. For this reason someone will by an apple iphone and someone else a more basic model. Both allow you to make calls however the Iphone will do a lot more for your money.

I totally get that what you have works for you. However many are looking for something that does more. It is this feedback from people who use and buy the controls that drive our development.

I can not comment on the issues you had it may have been a control issue, Or it may have been something else. All I can say is that from experience if the controller is displaying information about the battery. In the majority of cases the control is just providing information and pointing to an issue, be it damaged battery, wiring corroded connectors or something else. The voltmeter is just that, it is showing the volts available at the control no more no less. My advice here would be the same whether it our controller or another manufacturers

Yes pump controls are popular as the benefits of managing the pump are well accepted. We are but one manufacturer, who spend large amounts of time listening to what the market wants and answering that need.