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KS Cleaning

  • Posts: 3931
Re: Dislocated shoulder
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2014, 05:02:57 pm »
I would have him out dropping leaflets for his hrs
I know what you are saying, but you can't do that, he would have to be signed back to work on lighter duties.

KS Cleaning

  • Posts: 3931
Re: Dislocated shoulder
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2014, 05:20:46 pm »
you probably know this - but you may not get all your ssp back - its used to be  linked to nic contributions but I am sure there were some changes from April this year here is a quick search but as always do your own research, I may be incorrect..
http://elsbyandco.co.uk/employers-will-no-longer-be-able-to-claim-ssp-from-6th-april/#.U9SxHeNdX84

Aye a knew they had changed it, I will speak to ma accountant tomorrow. Like you said, it used to get deducted from your PAYE bill, now a believe it gets deducted from your tax bill, so will take longer to recoup the money :'( and even then am not sure if it's 100% tax deductible.
Well it's worse than a thought, you can't claim back SSP at all now  :'( :'( :'(. I have been told by my accountant that this issue is a big bone of contention for small businesses who like myself employ part time workers .

Bet you wish you had a zero hours contract.
I've looked into this and a zero hours contract wouldn't have made any difference because my employee has been working 24 hours every week, so  SSP / holiday pay etc would be calculated on the 24 hours he works.

PoleKing

  • Posts: 8974
Re: Dislocated shoulder
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2014, 06:15:47 pm »
you probably know this - but you may not get all your ssp back - its used to be  linked to nic contributions but I am sure there were some changes from April this year here is a quick search but as always do your own research, I may be incorrect..
http://elsbyandco.co.uk/employers-will-no-longer-be-able-to-claim-ssp-from-6th-april/#.U9SxHeNdX84

Aye a knew they had changed it, I will speak to ma accountant tomorrow. Like you said, it used to get deducted from your PAYE bill, now a believe it gets deducted from your tax bill, so will take longer to recoup the money :'( and even then am not sure if it's 100% tax deductible.
Well it's worse than a thought, you can't claim back SSP at all now  :'( :'( :'(. I have been told by my accountant that this issue is a big bone of contention for small businesses who like myself employ part time workers .

Bet you wish you had a zero hours contract.
I've looked into this and a zero hours contract wouldn't have made any difference because my employee has been working 24 hours every week, so  SSP / holiday pay etc would be calculated on the 24 hours he works.

I've never heard that, can you post the link please?
Would it take an average if he had done variable hours?
www.LanesWindowCleaning.com

It's just the internet. Try not to worry.

Smudger

  • Posts: 13421
Re: Dislocated shoulder
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2014, 06:29:12 pm »
Hi PK
as long as they ahve earned not less than lower earnings limit within previous 8 weeks


http://www.cipd.co.uk/binaries/zero-hours-contracts_2013-understanding-the-law.pdf
Its on page 15 -  in addition
to being a ‘qualifying employee’, an individual must also
be absent due to incapacity for work for four or more
days in a row and have had average weekly earnings of
not less than the lower earnings limit (currently £109
per week) within the previous eight weeks.

Its of course times like this that a small business may have a difficult choice to make especially if the employee is relatively new - pay them and hope they come back (up to 28 weeks) and are fit and wanting to work, or maybe lay off and have to bring on someone else - every business is different and I think most would find a few weeks worth it, but longer term than that it may prove finanically difficult to justify it - 
Never argue with an idiot, they will only bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience

KS Cleaning

  • Posts: 3931
Re: Dislocated shoulder
« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2014, 06:55:26 pm »
you probably know this - but you may not get all your ssp back - its used to be  linked to nic contributions but I am sure there were some changes from April this year here is a quick search but as always do your own research, I may be incorrect..
http://elsbyandco.co.uk/employers-will-no-longer-be-able-to-claim-ssp-from-6th-april/#.U9SxHeNdX84

Aye a knew they had changed it, I will speak to ma accountant tomorrow. Like you said, it used to get deducted from your PAYE bill, now a believe it gets deducted from your tax bill, so will take longer to recoup the money :'( and even then am not sure if it's 100% tax deductible.
Well it's worse than a thought, you can't claim back SSP at all now  :'( :'( :'(. I have been told by my accountant that this issue is a big bone of contention for small businesses who like myself employ part time workers .

Bet you wish you had a zero hours contract.
I've looked into this and a zero hours contract wouldn't have made any difference because my employee has been working 24 hours every week, so  SSP / holiday pay etc would be calculated on the 24 hours he works.

I've never heard that, can you post the link please?
Would it take an average if he had done variable hours?

Aye, that's right it would go on the average. Zero hour contracts are more suited for employing someone where the hours worked are irregular a think?  Maybe there's some employers on here who use the zero hour contracts who will have more info on this?

KS Cleaning

  • Posts: 3931
Re: Dislocated shoulder
« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2014, 07:07:02 pm »
Hi PK
as long as they ahve earned not less than lower earnings limit within previous 8 weeks


http://www.cipd.co.uk/binaries/zero-hours-contracts_2013-understanding-the-law.pdf
Its on page 15 -  in addition
to being a ‘qualifying employee’, an individual must also
be absent due to incapacity for work for four or more
days in a row and have had average weekly earnings of
not less than the lower earnings limit (currently £109
per week) within the previous eight weeks.

Its of course times like this that a small business may have a difficult choice to make especially if the employee is relatively new - pay them and hope they come back (up to 28 weeks) and are fit and wanting to work, or maybe lay off and have to bring on someone else - every business is different and I think most would find a few weeks worth it, but longer term than that it may prove finanically difficult to justify it -  
That's the other sting in the tail, you can't pay them off just because they are on SSP, irrespective of how long they have been employed by you. If the employee was unhappy about being paid off they can take you to a tribunal, where you would have to prove the employee would be unfit for work long term, at this stage the tribunal would more than likely side with the employee. I am having to pay SSP for the six weeks he is signed off, 1st week will be free so five weeks, if he is signed off again after the initial 6 weeks, I will have a stronger case as my business is being hampered longer term.

alfie11

Re: Dislocated shoulder
« Reply #26 on: July 29, 2014, 08:54:46 pm »

http://www.payroll-help.com/2010/10/ssp-for-repeated-leisure-injuries/

In a decision given on 29 September 2010 in the case Aber Roof Truss Ltd v Revenue & Customs, the First Tier Tax Tribunal ruled that an employee with a long history of absences caused by football injuries is nevertheless entitled to SSP.

In June 2008, Mr. Adams sustained a football injury, a strained knee ligament, and was absent from work for over two weeks.  This was the latest in a long history of sickness absences, mainly caused by football injuries.  He had previously been warned by his employer that no more SSP would be paid for absences due to football injuries.  He was absent for two weeks and the employer refused to pay SSP on the grounds that his incapacity was self-inflicted.  He appealed against the employer’s decision.

The Tribunal considered whether Mr. Adams met all of the conditions for SSP, namely that he was unfit for work due to incapacity or illness, that his employment was liable for NICs, and his average earnings exceeded the NICs lower earnings limit.  The employer did not dispute that he was unable to work because of illness, only that they viewed the illness as self-inflicted.

As all of the statutory conditions were met, Mr. Adams was entitled to SSP and the employer was liable to make the payment.

]Despite this decision, employers should not hold back from refusing to pay SSP if there are significant doubts over the employee’s entitlement.  The worst that can happen is that, following an appeal by the employee against the refusal to pay, an HMRC officer decides that it should be paid, or not, as the case may be[/b.  This case is unusual in that the employer continued to refuse to pay, but it is clear that football injuries, however frequently incurred, cannot be viewed as “self-inflicted”.  There is no statutory basis for excluding “self-inflicted” injuries

Smudger

  • Posts: 13421
Re: Dislocated shoulder
« Reply #27 on: July 29, 2014, 09:10:39 pm »
have you spoken to acas to see actually what your legal obligations are - personally if it was any one of my guys we would do everything we could - but they have been with us over a year and we know they are "good genuine guys" not saying at all that yours are not, but i thought he had not been with you very long at all - you may find that you can legally end employment as he has not built up any legal rights,  - I am not saying this is correct, all I am saying is that if you haven't already that you may find a phone call to acas to see all your options, ie do you have an option to legally terminate his contract IF you felt this was the best business decision, if you haven't spoken to them it  might be a good thing to do, just so you do know all your choices.  Mrs Smudger
Never argue with an idiot, they will only bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience

KS Cleaning

  • Posts: 3931
Re: Dislocated shoulder
« Reply #28 on: July 29, 2014, 10:26:38 pm »
have you spoken to acas to see actually what your legal obligations are - personally if it was any one of my guys we would do everything we could - but they have been with us over a year and we know they are "good genuine guys" not saying at all that yours are not, but i thought he had not been with you very long at all - you may find that you can legally end employment as he has not built up any legal rights,  - I am not saying this is correct, all I am saying is that if you haven't already that you may find a phone call to acas to see all your options, ie do you have an option to legally terminate his contract IF you felt this was the best business decision, if you haven't spoken to them it  might be a good thing to do, just so you do know all your choices.  Mrs Smudger
He has been with me since March, he is a good lad and has not missed a day. The info I got was from Employers Direct via ACAS. Their advice is to pay the SSP for the six week period = 5 payments of £87.50, then if he is signed off work again after this period ( and there is a good chance he will due to the nature of the job ) a tribunal would look at the employers side more favourably at this stage, whereas they would more than likely side with the employee if I acted now.
I will speak to employee tomorrow and give him 2 options

1.Pay off  with immediate effect, 24 hours pay, and job kept open for 12 weeks.
2.Take the SSP but if you are not fit for work after 6 weeks, paid off ( I think I will still have to pay the 24 hours) but no job kept open.

Smudger

  • Posts: 13421
Re: Dislocated shoulder
« Reply #29 on: July 30, 2014, 08:02:23 am »
They are good options - hope your meeting goes well - I also think as he has only been with you for such a short period of time you could actually terminate his employment for any reason with a weeks pay - this could be for any reason ie workloads - etc etc - not nice but I am sure if you put this direct scenerio to acas I am 99% sure they would agree you could legally do this with no re-course - however as always check it out - but you would need to ask them DIRECTLY on that particular scenerio and let them know his length of service - if you do not ask outright they will give you the other options. I hope your guy has a quick recovery but his injury sounds bad, and sometimes its better to make the tough decisions earlier rather than later.  - Mrs Smudger
Never argue with an idiot, they will only bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience

KS Cleaning

  • Posts: 3931
Re: Dislocated shoulder
« Reply #30 on: July 30, 2014, 08:13:03 pm »
They are good options - hope your meeting goes well - I also think as he has only been with you for such a short period of time you could actually terminate his employment for any reason with a weeks pay - this could be for any reason ie workloads - etc etc - not nice but I am sure if you put this direct scenerio to acas I am 99% sure they would agree you could legally do this with no re-course - however as always check it out - but you would need to ask them DIRECTLY on that particular scenerio and let them know his length of service - if you do not ask outright they will give you the other options. I hope your guy has a quick recovery but his injury sounds bad, and sometimes its better to make the tough decisions earlier rather than later.  - Mrs Smudger
The difference here is it would be obvious to any tribunal (and he would be able to take this to tribunal despite only starting in March) that I had paid him off after he had been signed off from work for 6 weeks.
As he has been a good lad in the short time he has been with me I have decided I will pay him the SSP for the 6 week period then we will take it from there.