Interested In Advertising? | Contact Us Here
Warning!

 

Welcome to Clean It Up; the UK`s largest cleaning forum with over 34,000 members

 

Please login or register to post and reply to topics.      

 

Forgot your password? Click here

David lingard

  • Posts: 69
Question on RO units
« on: March 06, 2014, 04:32:14 pm »
I have been going for about a year or so and I am using a 450GpD Ro unit with 10" prefilters, a booster pump and a 7L resin canister.

Mains TDS: 300
Mains pressure: 1.5bar

When I first got the RO unit it would output at 19ppm with the waste fully open (after the pressure restrictor) and now it has crept up to about 50ppm (so new membranes right?). So I am looking online for membranes, which will cost me about £120 total, but I can get a brand new 450gpd unit delivered for £180...

Now I am wondering should I get a more efficient system, so I looked up the 4021 and 4040 systems - it looks like these will make me a saving on resin as they will reduce tds (so I have been led to believe) to about 9ppm, but they are £360 and £460 respectively when bought with 20" prefilters (as I have been told that these are more suited to the 40/ units.

My question is really should I buy new membranes, a new unit of the same type, a 4021 unit, or 4040 unit? And do I really need 20" prefilters?

Thanks in advance for your help!

robert mitchell

  • Posts: 1993
Re: Question on RO units
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2014, 04:51:30 pm »
the biggest problem you have is your water pressure - 1.5 bar is not nearly enough (21psi).

I use a low pressure hf5 4040 and the minimum it works effectively at is about 45psi but works much better at higher pressures (lower tds and more output)

you could try a booster on your 450gpd .

is your ro van mounted or static ?
www.ishinewindowcleaning.co.uk

The man who never made a mistake never made anything.

David lingard

  • Posts: 69
Re: Question on RO units
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2014, 05:02:04 pm »
It's static, filling storage containers... Also I currently boost the system to about 4bar with a diaphragm pump, which has helped but I think the membranes are past that!

robert mitchell

  • Posts: 1993
Re: Question on RO units
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2014, 05:10:38 pm »
don't think it should be knackered after a year , my 4040 is 2 years old and still as good as day one.

do you change pre filters often enough?

chlorine knackers the membranes .
www.ishinewindowcleaning.co.uk

The man who never made a mistake never made anything.

David lingard

  • Posts: 69
Re: Question on RO units
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2014, 05:43:10 pm »
I should think I probably do need to change the filters on more of a regular basis - I think it was about 8 months in when I first changed them. I'm pretty sure That my membranes do need replacing, I'm just not sure which way to go I.e. new unit, better unit etc.

Thanks for your help

robert mitchell

  • Posts: 1993
Re: Question on RO units
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2014, 05:48:31 pm »
I have my ro on the van and with my booster pump i can fill the 650 in about three-four hours tds between 200-250.


If you have room a 4040 into an ibc would be ideal and you would never be short of water as your business grows.

how much water do you use?
www.ishinewindowcleaning.co.uk

The man who never made a mistake never made anything.

robert mitchell

  • Posts: 1993
Re: Question on RO units
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2014, 05:49:06 pm »
i know spruce has a lot of experience with the 450gpd so he may  be able to help.
www.ishinewindowcleaning.co.uk

The man who never made a mistake never made anything.

dannymack

  • Posts: 1624
Re: Question on RO units
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2014, 05:55:05 pm »
Isn't it just the membranes that makes the water slower going into your pure water tank. I've got a 450 ro which I've got the aqua 8800 booster pump. I change my 20" pre filters every 3 months as the 3 of them work out around £20 🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧membranes normally need changing around the five year mark !!!

robert mitchell

  • Posts: 1993
Re: Question on RO units
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2014, 06:00:36 pm »
if the pre filters are blocked this will reduce the pressure to the ro , if you leave the carbon one too long chlorine will ruin the membranes .

he said his were in eight months and i think they are ten inch .
www.ishinewindowcleaning.co.uk

The man who never made a mistake never made anything.

David lingard

  • Posts: 69
Re: Question on RO units
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2014, 06:08:39 pm »
At  the moment I have a water shed with IBC being filled. I use about 500L per day so I'm never short, I just wondered about reducing running costs, raising efficiency, reducing waste etc

David lingard

  • Posts: 69
Re: Question on RO units
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2014, 08:15:17 pm »
Can I use 10" prefilters with a 4040 machine? Also can I use my existing 80psi booster pump to up the pressure for it?


Ian Lancaster

  • Posts: 2811
Re: Question on RO units
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2014, 08:40:48 pm »
Can I use 10" prefilters with a 4040 machine? Also can I use my existing 80psi booster pump to up the pressure for it?



The 10" filters are probably 1/4" pipework - the 40-40 operates on 1/2" so you wouldn't have enough flow of water.  Same with the pump, if it's a diaphragm pump it won't provide anything like enough water to the membrane.  We use this one:    http://www.amazon.co.uk/CLARKE-ELECTRIC-WATER-BOOSTER-METRE/dp/B001CCCKWG  but the price has shot up since we bought ours :o


Spruce

  • Posts: 8434
Re: Question on RO units
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2014, 09:28:38 pm »
Can I use 10" prefilters with a 4040 machine? Also can I use my existing 80psi booster pump to up the pressure for it?



Can you use 10" filters? Yes, but if you are thinking of stripping the ones of your current r/o then the answer is no.

Your current r/o will use 1/4" plastic piping which is fine. A 4040 uses 1/2" piping as the 1/4" will not supply enough water. I'm pretty sure the 4021 also needs 1/2" piping as per Ian's advice.

A 10" prefilter has a lot of work to do processing water for a larger r/o. You won't need it to produce more water, but it will produce the same amount of water only much faster.

If you look on the Gardiner's website you will see that the 10" Fiberdyne chlorine filter they supply will remove the chlorine from 1/2 the amount of water the 40" will remove, which I guess is logical.

For me going the 10" prefilter route didn't make sense, especially with regard to the sediment filter. Between the 3 of us we used 23000 liters of tap water last month which would have probably made us 11000 litres of pure and I had to replace my sediment filter as it was so filthy it was restricting the flow of water. Had I had a 10" prefilter I would be replacing it every couple of weeks - and this has been a bad month for us weather wise.

If we carry on with our current water consumption, our 20" fiberdyn carbon block prefilter will need to be replaced every 3 months.

I love our 4040 r/o, mainly because I don't have to ration water out anymore. But on adding up the component bill 18 months ago, a DIY purpose built 4040 cost me nearly £1000.00. This includes a di vessel, wood for a cabinet, tube heater and thermostat as well as an inline tds meter.  I also opted for the 20" clear prefilter housings which are more expensive and I bought 2 pressure gauges, one for before the sediment filter and the other for after the chlorine filter.

The 450 GPD unit kept up with the requirements of 2 full time cleaners, although it was tight in the winter.  Our water TDS was around 255 and the menbranes brought that down to 4 without booster pump assistance. Our water pressure is between 40 and 50 psi.

More recently the area has had new pipes installed and our tap water TDS is around 115. The 450 GPD was reducing that to 2 as does the 4040 using an HF5 membrane.

We religiously changed our prefilter every 3 months and our membranes lasted 6 years. I bought the r/o second hand and it was about a year old. The prefilters hadn't been changed by the previous owner until he sold it to me, and those membranes had to be replaced within a couple of months of me buying the unit.
I bought the replacement membranes from RoMan. The 150GPD membranes were new on the market then and I had to wait for a consignment to arrive from America. In those days they advised me to only buy good quality American membranes rather than the cheaper Korean ones that were also available. They told me the Korean stuff didn't perform as efficiently as the American product did.  

The prefilter have got to be replaced often.
If you estimate using 500 liters a day you will probably use about 2000 litres a week. If you have a 3 to 1 restrictor, you would have used 8000 liters to produce the pure you used. Projecting that you would have used 32000 litres a month and 256000 liters in 8 months. No way would your chlorine block filter lasted that long.

If you had been using the long lasting Fiberdyne carbon block, you would need to change it every 5 weeks on your current water useage.

What would I do? I would just replace the r/o membranes with a good quality product from GAPS, RoMan or Daqua. I would also replace the restrictor with a John Guest tap. Now I would also buy an inline tds meter and fit one sensor on the pure after the r/o but before the di vessel and then the other sensor after the di vessel.  This is so I could tweek the waste through this tap to get the lowest tds through the membrane.
Success is 1% inspiration, 98% perspiration and 2% attention to detail!

The older I get, the better I was ;)

David lingard

  • Posts: 69
Re: Question on RO units
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2014, 09:53:51 pm »
That's great info thanks. So the restrictor isn't really needed if you have a jg tap on the waste? So it would seem the way to go is to buy a boatload of filters and replace them every 2-3 months on the current 450 system (after getting new membranes of course!)

Michael Peterson

  • Posts: 1741
Re: Question on RO units
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2014, 06:01:02 am »
what about the fast r o s from gardiners they look more plug and play friendly

Frankybadboy

  • Posts: 9022
Re: Question on RO units
« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2014, 07:29:42 am »
great post that spruce ;)

Dave Willis

Re: Question on RO units
« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2014, 08:20:33 am »
what about the fast r o s from gardiners they look more plug and play friendly

Good question, I was looking at those again last night.