[Ian_Giles]

I was chatting with Squeaks this morning as we bought our newspapers and we discussed briefly on what we charged for similar sized properties.
Now one of the areas the forum has opened my eyes on is just how much we can charge for our work.
In an area that Squeaks covers quite extensively there was a house I had to give a price for, I knew the houses so was able to give him a provisional price over the phone…a tenner, minimum.
He was more than happy to pay that price; in fact he was expecting it to be a fair bit higher.
For these houses Squeaks is charging £6.00.
I have told him to call on this property because it just isn’t suitable for my van mount system (Now Tosh’s  backpack would have been perfect) and I told Squeaks to charge a tenner…He was appalled that I was charging so much for something he could knock out in under ten minutes!!
He equated it to the equivalent of £60 per hour, no way could he justify charging that much.
I disagreed…
We didn’t really continue the conversation very far, chatted about other things and so on, and it was bloody cold too!
But a point to remember is that the average window cleaner will only manage about 3 of these an hour, they get their skates on and they might knock out 4, and only then if they are close together.
Roger can do these houses in 7 minutes, but there is no way he would clean 8 of these in an hour, that would be just about impossible.
Timing yourself from sticking up the ladder to the final wipe of the scrim on the sill of the last window is one thing, going from house to house is quite another!!
So you have to keep in mind just how long an AVERAGE window cleaner is going to take, and the average window cleaner is going to take around 15 or 20 minutes to clean a standard sized semi.
So you have to remember that Mr Average is only going to be doing 3 of these an hour, and in an average day he will be working between the hours of….say 8.30am and 3.30pm with perhaps 45 minutes out for a tea break and a lunch break.
Take out travelling between accounts and chatting to customers as you collect the money and Mr Average is only going to be working somewhere between 5 and 6 hours. (more likely 5)!
So Squeak’s £6.00 per account works out to £18.00 an hour over 5 hours works out to £90.00.
At a tenner a pop it works out to £150.00.

If all of Mr Average’s work is priced at this rate then the challenge is to maintain that kind of turnover throughout the working week, and to further maintain it week after week and month after month.
It is unlikely our Mr Average will maintain that rate throughout any given month; various reasons will slow him down, the weather, his mood and no end of other things like…oh, chatting too long to a favourite customer or two, having to go off and buy equipment or to price up work..well, you get the picture eh?
By the end of his financial year, his turnover, at a tenner a pop he may well achieve a turnover somewhere in the region of about 22-25k
At £6.00 a pop it will be around 15-17k.

Currently, according to official figures, nationally Mr Average window cleaner is in fact turning over about £17,500 or so per year.
So you can bang out a semi of this size in 7 minutes?? Give that man a banana! He is at least twice as fast as Mr Average, so why the hell shouldn’t he earn twice as much money!!!
Your prices should reflect average times, the only person to gain from pricing much lower than Mr Average will price is the customer.
Our fast window cleaner has the skill and the ability to work at twice the speed, but he should still ensure he prices at a similar rate to Mr average so he can at least profit from his skills.
This forum has certainly opened my own eyes, and I now don’t bat an eyelid when someone asks me how much?
I usually know the area’s they come from, but I always tell them I have a minimum charge of £8.00.
A tiny bungalow?
Tough luck, I still have to drive there and drive to my next account, if it only takes me 5 minutes to clean I still think it is fair.
If I want to top 25k in a year I have to charge these prices.

Don’t be afraid to stick in high prices, I actually don’t think I’m high enough, so far I am getting at least a 98% success rate when I put in a new price to a new customer, in fact it is probably higher than that.
A 60:40 ratio would be acceptable.
Also, being on the high side means I don’t need to rush, I don’t need to cut corners…and it might also mean I can actually afford a fortnights holiday without panicking about how much it is costing me and how much income I am losing while I am on the holiday!

Regards,

Ian

[windows_chepstow]

No, I'm not charging enough in some areas, and by coincidence a customer of mine yesturday told me to keep the change, since her daughter pays a huge amount more than what she does.

You know you're cheap when your customers tell you, you should up your prices!

I'll do another price rise when the weather improves!

[Roy Harding]

Ian

You always hit the nail on the head.

When you start out you need every customer and hence you tend to price low. But when you have enough its time to start picking up some jobs which I call cream ones. The rest are bread and butter. If anyone asks for there windows to be cleaned put in a price that you know will pay great. If they say no to bad, there always one round the next corner.

I’m quite full with work however I never refuse to price a job as I know it will have to pay. And you can always keep refining your round, by dropping something that you don’t like doing or doesn’t pay as well.

I know of someone local who has large jobs between £300 - £500 and quite a few of them.

We used to aim a few years ago to make £10 per hour then £20 most now aim for £30. To do this every hour takes some doing, you have to be motivated and price well but it can be done.

Also you need to make a profit for your business not just a wage, you need new equipment and transport etc. So when pricing say It’s going to take 20min to do this so that’s £10 for me and £5 for the business so the price is £15 for every 20mins [ example only].

Roy

[pjulk]

I gave some work to another window cleaner who just started up last week it was not much work but was out of the way.

He nearly passed out when i gave him the list when he see my prices as im charging double what he is on some properties.

He said how can you get away with prices that high.
I said i price by what i want to earn and i work smarter not harder.

He also asked what i would charge on a certain council estate all terrece's so i told him.
I don't and won't clean there anyway.
He went round and charged them a pound cheaper when he would have got the price i would have charged them.

He even said on the work i gave him that he might drop the price a bit on some of them as he thought they were to high.
I said for god sake don't do that so he offered me the differance which i refused.

I see him out today and it took him 40 minutes to clean a 3 bed terrace when i do them in 10 minutes.
If he goes in with low prices i don't think he will be around long.

I did try to explain that is why a lot of window cleaners pack up as they have not got there pricing right.

Paul

[AuRavelling79]

'Scuse me for shouting, but....THE GUYS POSTING ABOVE ME IN THIS THREAD KNOW WHAT THEY ARE ON ABOUT! LISTEN AND LEARN FROM THEM - I DID!

This forum has helped me increase my turnover.
It has helped me have the confidence to go for wfp.
It has helped me work more safely.
And to up my prices.

A pound a year on loyal existing customers. But a lot more on new ones.

If you're round is getting full and you haven't put up prices for a while then go round them all and for the majority add £1 to the under a tenners and £2 to the over a tenners.

And religiously do this every year around about March/April.

Go on - you know you want to.

You'll only lose the "Victor Meldrews" from your round!



 

[Dominic]

I found out a bloke was charging less than half my prices in the same area as me.

I went through the whole mental torture of thinking how to deal with the situation. Whether I should have a price war etc. I even rang him up and told him that he could easily be charging twice as much and doing half the work enabling him to expand his business rather than being bogged down with masses of underpriced work. But would he listen ?Nooooo! And has he nicked loads of my customers ? Yessss.

My conclusion was: if he wants all the crap he can have it cos I've been there before and got sick of running about like a nutter for not enough return. If I can't earn what I believe my time is worth then I'll change careers. Some people just don't value their time and effort as much as others.

As has been said before this type of shiner doesn't normally last because there's no incentive so I'll just wait till he falls by the wayside and all the disloyals come running back to the reliable service that does charge more but is there for the long run.

I feel that I'm running a business the same as any other so you have to charge  rates that will bring a good measure of success not rates that just keep you above the bread line. You wouldn't get many plumbers turning up for less than £60 before they've even wiped their feet at your door so why should we.

Dom

[Richy L]

I clean close to you Ian, in Caldicot and Magor, when I first started my own round only about a year ago I was giving prices, but apperently the guy before me was usually charging much less. Later I found out this guy was an old man, who seems like he was just after some beer money. But people are usually willing to pay a little more if they know you are regular and if you do a good job.

So many of my customers have said
 " It's so hard finding a good window cleaner that doesn't dissapear after a couple of cleans"

Now I give the customers a price that I know is fair for a good regular clean

[Morph]

Very accurate reasoning Ian, at the top.
I have operated on those same principles and averages for years.
Another little tip:  When you require a service or a product from someone...When they give you a quote, let's say something on a par with getting your windows cleaned....Say, something that may cost you £50 every six months, or £100 every year...Maybe you get a couple of quotes..You don't always go for the cheapest..If you've got any sense you try to go for the best, don't you?
But here's the thing, how often, when you get the price, do you think, "ooh, that's cheap!", or, "ooh, that's exactly what I expected!".  When you really want some service, it is usually a bit more than you hoped it would be...Be honest.
So, I often look for that "little wince of pain" on the face.  Not too much, just a little.  Then I know I've hit that sweet spot.
It's more than they wanted to pay, but they want it!  So they say....YES!  Call it psychology.  By the second or third clean they've got used to the price, and they know they must have got the service they were after, because it cost a little more than they wanted to part with..
You know you are charging them a little more than they wanted to pay, so you do a good job!
EVERYONE'S A WINNER

[stuart webster]

"Oh wow that's cheap"

Words you dont want to here!

[Sir Squeaky]

Good post Ian, and I know what you're saying.

I probably should be charging more for a lot of my work, but £10 was just a bit extreme.
They're not full size semis, they've only got one top window on one side and one little side window.

Oh, and I don't know about 7 minutes to do them.....maybe 9 or 10!
I'll time myself next time.

[ronaldo]

Best to keep yourself a minimum price wheather the property has got ten windows or one. I.e £8.00 pound this way at least it will make the clean worthwhile especially if u have to travel to get to it. We all make mistakes on pricing. At the end of the day just put them up if your doing a good job the customer should,nt mind. If they do just ask them to look for another wc. We are all here to earn a decent living out of what can be a difficult job at times and we deserve to be recognised as proper tradesmen instead of idiots with a pair of ladders and a bucket, which is how alot people look at us.

[Ian_Giles]

Good for you Rich, if you see me about, come over and say hi, I've got a big blue Nissan Primastar with 'Pure Water Window Cleaning' emblazoned all over it!

I'm in Caldicot a couple of times a week.

Roy also makes a really good point about your company making a profit too.

You also haveto bear in mind that your turnover ISN'T your wage!

If you are turning over, say, 15k then your income is somewhat less than that.

Some of you may well think your overheads only amount to a couple of quid a week, a set of ladders every ten years, a couple of rubbers a week, a couple of fresh scrims every few months, hardly worth thinking about.

Really?

You would be surprised!
The way to really check out what your business is costing you is to have 2 bank accounts, a business one and a private one.
You pay everything into your business one and every week you have a standing order paying yourself an income into your private one.
Just got the one vehicle?
Then don't forget to leave 75% of it's running costs in your business account, also leave enough in there for what you believe is the rest of your running costs for your business.
Also make sure, as Roy said, to leave enough there so that the 'business itself' makes a small profit, and by that I don't mean as in when you do you tax accounts, I don't mean the 'profit' you pay tax on.

You will be very surprised to see how much lower your wage really is, and just how much you really do need to leave in your business account to cover it's running costs and for it also to make a small profit.

Unfortunately I don't follow my own advice

I no longer have a dedicated business account because I resent with great intensity the charges levied against me when my personal banking is absolutely free.
But I'm starting to pay in so many cheques I may well be forced to open a business account
Therefore I'll do so in a new bank where I can get free business banking, I believe that there are now a couple that offer very good deals.

This thread is really aimed at the window cleaner who has been going for a few years and who is greater undervaluing his worth!!
Like Squeaks he may be really quick and bases his prices on the speed at which he can work, so the faster he is going the cheaper he is working!!

You have to remember that the standard window (one opening light, one pane underneath that opening light and one pane to the side) will take 90 seconds to clean, including a wipe of the sill, then there is 30 seconds to climb down ladder, move to next window and climb the ladder again (for upstairs that is, moving time is half that for downstairs)
Georgian windows will take you 3 times as long of course for the same size standard window. (Unless you go the WFP route that is)

If you are a newbie, maybe you have come from a job earning, say....£6.50 an hour?

Reckon £350 a week sounds ok to you?

Should be easy shouldn’t it?
You can read on here how window cleaners can do at least a couple of houses and hour, at £6.50 a house, two an hour over just a 7 hour day is £91 a day, that’s £455 a week!!

Of course the reality is that it doesn’t work out that way.
You will not earn £13.00 an hour, and even so, should you do so, it will be nothing like an INCOME of £455.00 per week!!
Your business will cost you more than you think to run.

Now squeaks has said that these are not very big accounts, but they are slap bang in the middle of a very affluent area indeed (though those in these particular houses are just ordinary people, not high earners) and you also have to travel several miles out to get to this village, it’s a long way to travel to come out on collections too.
To me, were these houses in the middle of an estate in my main town or with in a mile or two of my base I would be charging my £8.00 minimum charge.
But these are rural accounts, regardless of the fact that these people don’t earn a fortune they are still out in the sticks, and that alone means I slap an extra levy on the top of my minimum charge.
There is a post on the other forum by Paul C Smith, and he has been using Doorknockers to build new work.
His thread also gives a good perspective on another good reason for not being afraid to price high.

Don’t be afraid to put in a decent price!!
Don’t base your price on how fast you can work, base it on our Mr Average window cleaner and the time he takes to clean an average window!!

You want to earn £500 a week then you’ll need to be turning over £600 a week, and you won’t do that by charging £6.00 for a semi!
Taken over 12 months, and allowing for days you won’t be working you will also need to turn over a lot more than £125 a day to be able to average that £600 per week turnover too!!!!!

Ian

[Grafters Cleaning Services]

Had an example today, I had to clean a lady’s fascias and gutters etc (full clean) and charged her £150-00
 (I got the job from doing her mothers house regularly)

When I finished she ask me if I would be interested in being her regular w/c as her window cleaner wasn’t that good and was never regular

My answer to her was I don’t like taking work from fellow w/cs to which she replied “I was going to get rid of him anyway as he can’t clean all the windows from his ladder unlike your system” (wfp)

She then went on to say the he charged her £9 and did them every 3 months if she was lucky, to which I replied
 “ I could do them, but at my price of £12-00 per month” she happily excepted my price as did her neighbour (who by the way also wants her gutters/fascias cleaned @ £150-00 too)

So yes Ian, I think this is a great topic especially for the newbies

GET YOUR PRICES RIGHT 1ST TIME AROUND

[windows_chepstow]

Had an example today, I had to clean a lady’s fascias and gutters etc (full clean) and charged her £150-00
 

£150!!! Cough, cough, nurse get my pills.

The most I've charged for a three-bedroomed detached house is £75 for the same type of job; no facias.

I thought I did well to get that and I was actually happy with the work-to-time-to-money ratio.  But I'd have been a lot happier with £150!!!

The cheekiest I've ever been is to charge £25 for a detatched house with an average sized conservatory, whom the previous window cleaner charged £12.00.  Purely because I didn't like the arrogant attitude of the lady-owner.  She quizzed me quite condesendingly on how I work (Do you use the same dirty cloth all day? etc).

Anyway, I'm still way-underpriced too in many of my areas.  Today was a brilliant example.

I started with eleven semis in one street and they're big ones.  Each semi would be seven ladder climbs to clean them; big windows front and rear with a side window.  I charge each £7.00 which is an improvement on the £5.50 when I first started (3 years ago), but £9.00 would be a fairer price.  £8.00 an okay price.

I've got to bite the bullet and stop being soft. 

I feel a price rise comming on!

[Count Phil]

Just a note about the business acounts that Ian_Giles mentioned. I got stung by lloyds that way. I now pay everything into my savings account and transfer a wage into my current account once a month. the way to stop them pestering you about cheques is to put them all in the drop box. that way they never catch you to say anything. Put all your cash in through the counter though it's safer. I've been getting away with it for a year now. Do not be misled... a business account will end up costing about £70.00 a month. Then ypu would have to put up your prices.

[Grafters Cleaning Services]

Had an example today, I had to clean a lady’s fascias and gutters etc (full clean) and charged her £150-00
 

£150!!! Cough, cough, nurse get my pills.

The most I've charged for a three-bedroomed detached house is £75 for the same type of job; no facias.

I thought I did well to get that and I was actually happy with the work-to-time-to-money ratio.  But I'd have been a lot happier with £150!!!

i forgot to tell you that it did take me 3 hours to do a thorough job and the lady in question was well happy

[Roy Harding]

I think that also housing estates can be good money each house over and over. But with them being all the same you tend to get a maximum price people will pay. And if you go to far beyond that people start saying my neighbors window cleaner charges only x amount. And then you might not want to increase your price.

And if you where starting up today and you saw a nice housing estate you see pound signs in your eyes if I had all them look what I could earn. So to get a toe hold you go in a bit cheaper, so yet another window cleaner on the estate. So the average price is always held, and if you charge one more than the rest it isn’t long before they find out.

The advantage of bigger one off houses, they are all different each price is exclusive to the property and the people are normally better off. And being large properties they want some one trustworthy and are unlikely to change window cleaners because of a price increase, as they tend to be a bit more cautious who’s about their property. And also the added bonus that it is unlikely that they will all get canvassed by another window cleaner.

Of course the bigger the houses they may only want it every 8wks or 12wks so you need more of them.

My day a s follows:

House 8wk £45
     “       “   £20
      “       “  £40
      “       “  £15
      “       “  £17
      “       “  £25
      “       “  £25
      “       “  £16

9:30-2:!5  Total £203

The only trouble is that there are not enough for everyone, I would really hate to be starting up today as there are a lot more window cleaners.

Roy    

[Ian_Giles]

Ahhhh Roy...my hero :

Ian

[neil100]

iTS NOT JUST A CASE OF PRICEING IT RIGHT WHEN YOU START W/CLEANING.

But it is maintaining that price through the passing of the years. I know of a freind whos been w/cleaning 27 yrs, just longer then me, He had excellent prices when he first started, but he has not put the price up for 15yrs. He is now poorly paid and its all is own fault.

You have to have put your prices up yearly. Or every 2 yrs. I normally put my prices up every 2 yrs. But with me putting a lot of money in wfp I put my prices up 20% for every customer at the start of the year. Some as high as 25%, eg £8.00 is now charged £10.00.
You will loose  some customers, for me I could afford to loose 20% of my round and still earn the same money. I have lost £148.00 of work with going wfp, but mainly I have lost them cos of the price increase.

On the positive side I have got 40 new customers worth £470.00.

My average  weekly wage as gone up by £220.00 since wfp mixed with my price increase. So my advice get your prices right to start with. Getting the prices right is more important then getting cheap work in as you start to build your round. But you have to keep putting your prices up.

If you never put your prices up, the customer will never expect them to go up. if on the other hand you put your prices up by an average of 5% a year every year they will allways expect the price to rise.

Window cleaners should be proud of the service they provide and they should charge accordingly.

Nel.

[dustycorner]

When I go to price a new customer i always do the same thing, if for instance the house is worth £10 i tell the customer £11.

If they accept the price alls well and good, if they um and ah a bit i give them a pound discount getting the price i had guaged the job to be worth in the first place.

Cheers Mark.