[Spruce]

I am trying out 3mm jets tomorrow just to see how they perform

and how did you find them yesterday?

Sorry, I asked before I saw your post. Apologies. The moderators on a TV forum I visit would have given me a warning for doing that. I keep thinking I may dig out my old brush with 3mm jets, but I never have done.

I think 3mm jets are twice the capacity size that 2mm ones are, so you would need to double your flow. I think, as was our early days experience, that you will waste more water.

In the early days before controllers and 2mm jets I would get though 475 litres a day by about 3 oclock. On the same section I could do the same houses using less than 375 litres of water and still have the 4 drums left to clean more houses with a flow controller and smaller jets.

[Spruce]

I couldnt get the flow to work today with 3mm jets.

I ended up with flat out pump on my controller and yes it looked like a watering can effect.

TBH i was cleaning quicker and rinsing quicker, but it wasnt for me.

I would be interested now in have 4 x 1mm jets or 3 x 2mm jets.

So off to the drawing board again

4 1mm jets sounds like a good idea!

Especially now that the gardiners brushes have four pre drilled holes.

Think I know what I'll be doing over the weekend. 

I have tried 1mm jets and wasnt keen on them. But four would be the same as 2x 2mm technically. I think 3 x 2mm jets will be the winner tho. As with 1mm i think splash back will be more.

I think I remember Alex saying that 1.4mm is half the size of 2mm jets, so 4 x 1mm jets will use less water than 2 x 2mm ones will.

[Clever Forum Name]

No worries spruce lol, dont bother me.

I think for commercial and certain glass typres yeah it could be great.

Water is quite a small expense.

I had my flow flat out on friday as it didnt matter as was only only doing 6 houses to finish the week.

I used 3mm jets for three houses and 2mm jets for three houses.

Probably used a GOOD 100 L more of water, but when i saw the time i finished i was shocked!

I understand a high flow rate doesnt make the cleaning much quicker, its just the rinsing. The quicker you can rinse a window the better.

[Clever Forum Name]

I couldnt get the flow to work today with 3mm jets.

I ended up with flat out pump on my controller and yes it looked like a watering can effect.

TBH i was cleaning quicker and rinsing quicker, but it wasnt for me.

I would be interested now in have 4 x 1mm jets or 3 x 2mm jets.

So off to the drawing board again

4 1mm jets sounds like a good idea!

Especially now that the gardiners brushes have four pre drilled holes.

Think I know what I'll be doing over the weekend. 

I have tried 1mm jets and wasnt keen on them. But four would be the same as 2x 2mm technically. I think 3 x 2mm jets will be the winner tho. As with 1mm i think splash back will be more.

I think I remember Alex saying that 1.4mm is half the size of 2mm jets, so 4 x 1mm jets will use less water than 2 x 2mm ones will.

ah ok cool. Going to rig up 3 x 2mm jets and see what happens. I wont actually install them into the brush. Just use a t piece to see what happens

[Spruce]

No worries spruce lol, dont bother me.

I think for commercial and certain glass typres yeah it could be great.

Water is quite a small expense.

I had my flow flat out on friday as it didnt matter as was only only doing 6 houses to finish the week.

I used 3mm jets for three houses and 2mm jets for three houses.

Probably used a GOOD 100 L more of water, but when i saw the time i finished i was shocked!

I understand a high flow rate doesnt make the cleaning much quicker, its just the rinsing. The quicker you can rinse a window the better.

My son prefers to use a backpack and is used to a low water flow. It takes him ages to wash and rinse but his slower cleaning time is compensated by his reduced setup and hose management time. (This works fine for residental but becomes painfully slower on commercial where he has a run of windows.)

I watch him give the glass a quick wet, then he switches his flow off, scrubbs the window and then rinses. You could employ the same principle. Ideally, I would like a 2 speed system, a slow flow for washing and scrubbing and a fast flow for rinsing as this would be the best of both worlds.

Peter Fogwill recons his Aquatap is easy to reduce the flow and speed it up for rinsing with a small turn of the pole, where our Aquadaptors are not suited to that type of control.

[Clever Forum Name]

I used a backpack and trolley for 3 years. With a mounted hose reel. Trolley was made of alu and was so easy to work from.

My round is very compact. Typical day is 3 streets in one village then home.

Thursday i never left one road, i parked the van in the middle and did 9 houses off the hose and never went back to the van once.

What your son does is what i used todo, but going hot soon so thats why i went van mounted.

I have just tried 3 x 2mm jets and tbh was very very impressed!

I have not had enough time to do it, but i will be making a sill brush with 3 jets.

[C o z y]

The flow of the water at high pressure has only one neg thing its splashes if rinsing off the glass.Which I do not do.I personally use 7 lit a min and the reason you need more water when floating dirt of the glass. What I loose in water I gain in time spent on each job.I have plenty water and can easy refill but need more hours in some days.

Not going to contribute again on CIU eh Smithie?

Thank all to all you nice gentlemen for your kind words.But there is no need i have developed a thick skin on here. I am sorry that I defended my self when I was taken the ppp of and spoke out when I was verbally attacked. I also am sorry that I cannot put my story forward in an except fable fashion and that my motives are so construed. I obviously do things in a way that offend so many of you. This is not done intentionally I am just as baffled as you are at the response I raise, but its not really my intention. I think it would be best for me and you that I keep my thoughts to my self as they have no value to any on here, if they create such drama. I will not be contributing to this forum is future but will only read as the large majority do. So I will NOT be closing my account. I am sure this post will attract another avalanche of bile. Heart moving etc. But so be it.
P.S Thanks to the few chaps like Spruce that really did understand and even defended me at times and were I am coming from.

  Welcome back again Smithie

[Spruce]

The flow of the water at high pressure has only one neg thing its splashes if rinsing off the glass.Which I do not do.I personally use 7 lit a min and the reason you need more water when floating dirt of the glass. What I loose in water I gain in time spent on each job.I have plenty water and can easy refill but need more hours in some days.

Not going to contribute again on CIU eh Smithie?

Thank all to all you nice gentlemen for your kind words.But there is no need i have developed a thick skin on here. I am sorry that I defended my self when I was taken the ppp of and spoke out when I was verbally attacked. I also am sorry that I cannot put my story forward in an except fable fashion and that my motives are so construed. I obviously do things in a way that offend so many of you. This is not done intentionally I am just as baffled as you are at the response I raise, but its not really my intention. I think it would be best for me and you that I keep my thoughts to my self as they have no value to any on here, if they create such drama. I will not be contributing to this forum is future but will only read as the large majority do. So I will NOT be closing my account. I am sure this post will attract another avalanche of bile. Heart moving etc. But so be it.
P.S Thanks to the few chaps like Spruce that really did understand and even defended me at times and were I am coming from.

  Welcome back again Smithie

Well spotted Cozy

He has posted under Smithie in the last few days.

[Jonny 87]

I used a backpack and trolley for 3 years. With a mounted hose reel. Trolley was made of alu and was so easy to work from.

My round is very compact. Typical day is 3 streets in one village then home.

Thursday i never left one road, i parked the van in the middle and did 9 houses off the hose and never went back to the van once.

What your son does is what i used todo, but going hot soon so thats why i went van mounted.

I have just tried 3 x 2mm jets and tbh was very very impressed!

I have not had enough time to do it, but i will be making a sill brush with 3 jets.

Where do you put the third jet?

I would have thought you need an even number, unless you put the third jet smack in the middle of the brush?

I'd need to take a section of bristles out and drill a hole to do that.

[Clever Forum Name]

I used a backpack and trolley for 3 years. With a mounted hose reel. Trolley was made of alu and was so easy to work from.

My round is very compact. Typical day is 3 streets in one village then home.

Thursday i never left one road, i parked the van in the middle and did 9 houses off the hose and never went back to the van once.

What your son does is what i used todo, but going hot soon so thats why i went van mounted.

I have just tried 3 x 2mm jets and tbh was very very impressed!

I have not had enough time to do it, but i will be making a sill brush with 3 jets.

Where do you put the third jet?

I would have thought you need an even number, unless you put the third jet smack in the middle of the brush?

I'd need to take a section of bristles out and drill a hole to do that.

Yeah that's exactly what i did. I will be doing it soon, as i was very impressed. At my house i have lots of different glass types and 3 jets deffo made it easier.

[Ian Sheppard]

My understanding is that pressure at the brush head in any system is governed by the the various components...

Smaller bore pipework, smaller jet nozzles etc. will give an increase in pressure.

Flow rate is a personal thing, In an ideal you are aiming to use the minimum amount of water required for each job This may in some case be on 1LTR a a min or higher. Generally a higher flow rate during the rinse will give a better finish.

The ability to alter the flow rate can be useful. But as the above comment to a point the flow rate is governed by the restrictions you place in the system, these restrictions also increase the velocity of the water creating the fine a jet that bounces.

Getting the balance is a matter of trial and error, Your system does give you the ability to control the pump and pressure created.

This article may help http://www.springltd.co/node/137
Also have a look at windowcleaningmagazine.co.uk as it contains a number of good articles written by guys in the industry

Nice article Ian a good read i do agree with some points raised , For instance when their is that  tiny black grit on glass after stormy weather it can take 2-3 passes over the glass with my 1mm jets to ensure this is rinsed off .

A larger jet with a higher flow of water may mean i only have to pass over glass once , But this is not every house so for me i will always stick with 1mm pencil jets and me new  Xtreme flocked hybrid brush . Mike

Thank you for the comment Mike the article is aimed at getting people thinking about what works best for them. The forum is a great place for diverse views and sharing experience.

[Chris - CBWC]

I don't suppose there's a Window Cleaning Best Flow Rate guide out there?

I can almost get 1L per minute with pump at 65, and if maximum is 100 I'm not going to be getting 7L a minute at all!  This is with the pole horizontal at waste height.

I have a E-Chen EC-RV-05L water pump - http://www.e-chen.com.cn/En_ArticleShow.asp?ArticleID=441

You will never get 7 LPM as your pump is only rated at 5 LPM. The rating of a pump is down without the restriction of any hose attached. Putting the water through 100 meters of coiled hose will reduce that output dramatically, as will the temperature of the water.

I found the best flow rate was 1.5 litres a minute for optimal water saving, but time was wasted rinsing each window. I like a high flow as rinsing is much quicker, but I tend to waste water during the washing/scrubbing phase.

It was once reasoned that if it takes you a litre of water to wash a window, then working with a flow of 1 LPM will take you 1 minute to clean it. If you turned your flow up to 2 LPM then it would take you 30 secs to clean that window. This makes a lot of sense to me. But if you extend that line of reasoning to 7 LPM then it will take you less than 9 secs to clean that window, which I don't think is feasibly possible to clean it properly.

The other thing is that I don't think its possible to push 7 LPM of water through 2 x 2 mm jets using our water pressures, but that's based on pure conjecture on my part. If you could then the jets of water would be uncontrollable with spray bringing dirt down from everywhere above where you have cleaned.

Interesting.  I thought I read somewhere that an uncoiled hose is more able to expand which would decrease the flow rate?  Obviously 60m of hose would be better, which I'm tempted to get and just use the 100m on days when I would really need that much hose - would 8mm or 6mm give a faster flow rate?  8mm would be heavier, but would 60m of 8mm be lighter or heavier than 100m of 6mm? !!

I could partially close the hose pipe tap to lower the rate whilst scrubbing, then open it up fully for rinsing, but then wouldn't that increase the restriction within the system, which would then cause the pump to effectively work harder?  Not to mention increasing the wear on the small hose pipe tap - probably not worth it, but then I've read a fair bit about windies pinching the pole hose between windows to cut the water, which would either create a brief DE cutting the pump, or greatly increase the restriction, making the pump work harder to push the water out.

Sadly I'm a natural perfectionist, great for interviews, not so much for window cleaning as I probably spend way too long faffing around on the windows instead of quickly moving on to the next, which is why it's a bit nervy not being able to see close up what I'm doing on the upstairs windows!

[dd]

Just checked my flow rate.

100m of 8mm hose then standard pole hose on a 25 foot pole. 2 x 3mm jets (supplied and fitted by Gardiners) and I get approx 2.5 litres/minute.

I use a simple dial controller (similar to the one Polarbrite sell) which goes from 0-6 and it is set just under 2.

[Chris - CBWC]

I did an AutoCal today and it went to 35 (first one last week went to 49!) so what's the difference between having the Cal at 35 and flow rate at 70, and a Cal at 50 and flow rate at 70?

[Ian Sheppard]

I did an AutoCal today and it went to 35 (first one last week went to 49!) so what's the difference between having the Cal at 35 and flow rate at 70, and a Cal at 50 and flow rate at 70?

Remember when running cal the control is looking at the base operating pressure in your system when running. The pressure in the system will vary slightly even on a day to day basis, This pressure change can be down to how much hose is off the reel when you calibrate or even the temperature, Lower temps can mean the hose expansion can be faster of slower. This effects the pressure and the control is sensitive enough to adjust to these small differences.

To answer you question above the only noticeable difference you might see is that the pump will take slightly longer to dead end if the cal is 50 with flow at 70 than cal at 35 and flow 70. That said the difference is probably 1/2 a second or so. Although the control is sensitive to these small changes it is unlikely you will notice an effect on the flow or the pump stopping.

[Chris - CBWC]

OK thanks Ian.  I'll lower the cal then but keep the flow high as all my work will technically be first cleans for the next couple of months and will all need a good soaking and rinsing.

[Ian Sheppard]

Your welcome it appears your system is happy between 35 - 50 Cal setting as long as you get the flow you need thats fine. You may find that when temps fall cal will need tweaking.

[Spruce]

I don't suppose there's a Window Cleaning Best Flow Rate guide out there?

I can almost get 1L per minute with pump at 65, and if maximum is 100 I'm not going to be getting 7L a minute at all!  This is with the pole horizontal at waste height.

I have a E-Chen EC-RV-05L water pump - http://www.e-chen.com.cn/En_ArticleShow.asp?ArticleID=441

You will never get 7 LPM as your pump is only rated at 5 LPM. The rating of a pump is down without the restriction of any hose attached. Putting the water through 100 meters of coiled hose will reduce that output dramatically, as will the temperature of the water.

I found the best flow rate was 1.5 litres a minute for optimal water saving, but time was wasted rinsing each window. I like a high flow as rinsing is much quicker, but I tend to waste water during the washing/scrubbing phase.

It was once reasoned that if it takes you a litre of water to wash a window, then working with a flow of 1 LPM will take you 1 minute to clean it. If you turned your flow up to 2 LPM then it would take you 30 secs to clean that window. This makes a lot of sense to me. But if you extend that line of reasoning to 7 LPM then it will take you less than 9 secs to clean that window, which I don't think is feasibly possible to clean it properly.

The other thing is that I don't think its possible to push 7 LPM of water through 2 x 2 mm jets using our water pressures, but that's based on pure conjecture on my part. If you could then the jets of water would be uncontrollable with spray bringing dirt down from everywhere above where you have cleaned.

Interesting.  I thought I read somewhere that an uncoiled hose is more able to expand which would decrease the flow rate?  Obviously 60m of hose would be better, which I'm tempted to get and just use the 100m on days when I would really need that much hose - would 8mm or 6mm give a faster flow rate?  8mm would be heavier, but would 60m of 8mm be lighter or heavier than 100m of 6mm? !!

I could partially close the hose pipe tap to lower the rate whilst scrubbing, then open it up fully for rinsing, but then wouldn't that increase the restriction within the system, which would then cause the pump to effectively work harder?  Not to mention increasing the wear on the small hose pipe tap - probably not worth it, but then I've read a fair bit about windies pinching the pole hose between windows to cut the water, which would either create a brief DE cutting the pump, or greatly increase the restriction, making the pump work harder to push the water out.

Sadly I'm a natural perfectionist, great for interviews, not so much for window cleaning as I probably spend way too long faffing around on the windows instead of quickly moving on to the next, which is why it's a bit nervy not being able to see close up what I'm doing on the upstairs windows!

The problem of flow rate is due to the friction of water around the edges of the hose pipe. This friction increases if the inside wall of the pipe isn't total smooth. Due to this friction the water in the centre of the pipe flows fastest and water running along the edges travels slower. Once you coil the hose up, you create even more friction as the water is forced to the sides of the hose as it is forced around the coil.

We notice a big difference on one job we have where we unroll the whole 100 meters of hose. The water flows much better at the brush head. Half way through the job we roll about 2/3rd of the hose back onto the hose reel. The flow difference at the brush head is quite noticeable. So water is more easily able to travel down a straight hose than a coiled one. Water temperature also plays a big part in this as well.

Over Christmas I set up a diesel heater onto a test bench to heat my window cleaning water. The pole I use was lying in the driveway with the brush head pointing to the road. The water temperature in van's tank was 9 degrees C and the Varistream was running on a setting of 5 (just about 2 LPM). The water coming out of the brush jets didn't reach the end of the driveway. I slowly raised the outgoing water temperature. The hose was still fully coiled up on the hose reel. By the time the water reached 35 degrees at the brush head, the water reached across the road. I found that I could turn the flow down to 3 and it was the same as 5 using cold water.

I would expect the users of hot water with gas powered units have noticed the same thing. I certainly know that they have to reduce the pressure settings on their controllers.

In the early days of WFP Williamson Pumps refused to guarantee any Shurflo pump that was used on hose less than 1/2". This was when smaller microbore and minbore hose was in its infancy. A pump is forced to work harder the smaller the pipe's inside diameter.  They knew that and us users carried the risk. So your pump is going to have to drive the water much faster through the centre of microbore hose and overcome greater friction than if 1/2" hose was being used.

We have never experienced an issue with any Shurflo pump so I don't know what their guarantee is now on their pumps TBH.

[Spruce]

I don't suppose there's a Window Cleaning Best Flow Rate guide out there?

I can almost get 1L per minute with pump at 65, and if maximum is 100 I'm not going to be getting 7L a minute at all!  This is with the pole horizontal at waste height.

I have a E-Chen EC-RV-05L water pump - http://www.e-chen.com.cn/En_ArticleShow.asp?ArticleID=441

You will never get 7 LPM as your pump is only rated at 5 LPM. The rating of a pump is down without the restriction of any hose attached. Putting the water through 100 meters of coiled hose will reduce that output dramatically, as will the temperature of the water.

I found the best flow rate was 1.5 litres a minute for optimal water saving, but time was wasted rinsing each window. I like a high flow as rinsing is much quicker, but I tend to waste water during the washing/scrubbing phase.

It was once reasoned that if it takes you a litre of water to wash a window, then working with a flow of 1 LPM will take you 1 minute to clean it. If you turned your flow up to 2 LPM then it would take you 30 secs to clean that window. This makes a lot of sense to me. But if you extend that line of reasoning to 7 LPM then it will take you less than 9 secs to clean that window, which I don't think is feasibly possible to clean it properly.

The other thing is that I don't think its possible to push 7 LPM of water through 2 x 2 mm jets using our water pressures, but that's based on pure conjecture on my part. If you could then the jets of water would be uncontrollable with spray bringing dirt down from everywhere above where you have cleaned.

Interesting.  I thought I read somewhere that an uncoiled hose is more able to expand which would decrease the flow rate?  Obviously 60m of hose would be better, which I'm tempted to get and just use the 100m on days when I would really need that much hose - would 8mm or 6mm give a faster flow rate?  8mm would be heavier, but would 60m of 8mm be lighter or heavier than 100m of 6mm? !!

I could partially close the hose pipe tap to lower the rate whilst scrubbing, then open it up fully for rinsing, but then wouldn't that increase the restriction within the system, which would then cause the pump to effectively work harder?  Not to mention increasing the wear on the small hose pipe tap - probably not worth it, but then I've read a fair bit about windies pinching the pole hose between windows to cut the water, which would either create a brief DE cutting the pump, or greatly increase the restriction, making the pump work harder to push the water out.

Sadly I'm a natural perfectionist, great for interviews, not so much for window cleaning as I probably spend way too long faffing around on the windows instead of quickly moving on to the next, which is why it's a bit nervy not being able to see close up what I'm doing on the upstairs windows!

I'm answering this separately.

Most of us haven't the space in our vans to carry a variety of hose reels around to accomodate different jobs. Most of us have found that 100 meters of minibore/microbore is good for everything. If you need it longer then move the van.

I'm also inclined to over clean, but I can tell you from experience you waste time, water and money doing it. I know this is very new to you, so the 'smart money' tells us that you need 2 passes on each window pane, a quick rinse and onto the next window. Set yourself a a target time to wash and rinse an average window of 60 seconds. Count up a second at a time in your head as you do it. I will probably take you longer than a minute as you are doing first cleans, so start doing it after your second clean. If you take longer, make 60 secs your target. Once you have achieved that then  reduce it to 50 seconds etc.

Son in law started wfp cleaning 2 years ago having done trad for many years. Yes he took over some of our round which was all wfp so he had no first cleans. He is so fast each window takes him less than 15 secs. But each window I've inspected after he has finished and moved on was perfect. We lost a couple of customers due to his speed. Not one of those customers convinced me that it was because the windows weren't cleaned properly.

We have a monthly commercial we do that which is done over a weekend when there isn't anyone around. Its great for experimenting on. There are a whole run of windows that are south facing so dry quickly. We have often used that run of windows to play around as we can go back over them and correct any issues. We tried one pass and rinse, a slower one pass and no rinse and scrubbed and rinsed like made. Once they had dried you couldn't tell the difference. But for us 2 passes and a good rinse is what we do.

Have a look at this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=re2CdgRbSsE

[Chris - CBWC]

Thank you Spruce, you've been a great help.

We notice a big difference on one job we have where we unroll the whole 100 meters of hose. The water flows much better at the brush head. Half way through the job we roll about 2/3rd of the hose back onto the hose reel. The flow difference at the brush head is quite noticeable. So water is more easily able to travel down a straight hose than a coiled one. Water temperature also plays a big part in this as well.

So in theory I should have a better flow rate round the back of the house than round the front as more hose is uncoiled then?  Or I need to uncoil the right amount for the back before I even start the front!

I'm answering this separately.

Most of us haven't the space in our vans to carry a variety of hose reels around to accomodate different jobs. Most of us have found that 100 meters of minibore/microbore is good for everything. If you need it longer then move the van.

I'm also inclined to over clean, but I can tell you from experience you waste time, water and money doing it. I know this is very new to you, so the 'smart money' tells us that you need 2 passes on each window pane, a quick rinse and onto the next window. Set yourself a a target time to wash and rinse an average window of 60 seconds. Count up a second at a time in your head as you do it. I will probably take you longer than a minute as you are doing first cleans, so start doing it after your second clean. If you take longer, make 60 secs your target. Once you have achieved that then  reduce it to 50 seconds etc.

Son in law started wfp cleaning 2 years ago having done trad for many years. Yes he took over some of our round which was all wfp so he had no first cleans. He is so fast each window takes him less than 15 secs. But each window I've inspected after he has finished and moved on was perfect. We lost a couple of customers due to his speed. Not one of those customers convinced me that it was because the windows weren't cleaned properly.

We have a monthly commercial we do that which is done over a weekend when there isn't anyone around. Its great for experimenting on. There are a whole run of windows that are south facing so dry quickly. We have often used that run of windows to play around as we can go back over them and correct any issues. We tried one pass and rinse, a slower one pass and no rinse and scrubbed and rinsed like made. Once they had dried you couldn't tell the difference. But for us 2 passes and a good rinse is what we do.

Have a look at this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=re2CdgRbSsE

I've watched a few of his videos recently, like this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuRIBzupHuM which has windows similar in size to those I deal with, but hadn't happened across the one you mention.

Because of previous health issues and an overly long transition period between trad and wfp, my customers' windows and frames will probably all be filthy so I'd rather spend a little extra time getting it clean first time and lower the chances of me losing customers or getting complaints and then on my return clean, I can concentrate on speeding up a lot.

2 passes is good advice, though I'm aggressively scrubbing my panes, possibly too much, I just imagine the windows must be really dirty and I need to scrub them clean, but then the water running down from the frame scrubbing and rinsing will have already softened it up somewhat.