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Carl2009

  • Posts: 806
News from HSE on solar panel cleaning
« on: January 06, 2014, 01:56:54 pm »
Late last year I was considering extending my services to offer solar panel cleaning; because of level of demand, cost of new 47' pole (which I would use day to day) and purchase of PPE I decided against it.

During the decision-making process I contacted manufacturers about H and S issues, particularly electrocution risk. All said that there was little or no risk. This takes no account of shoddy installation or deterioration (for example in the case of bad weather  :) causing wear to electrical wires causing a potential short and electrocution risk).

I also contacted the HSE for advice on "guidelines with regards to risk management and, specifically, PPE that individuals working on solar PV arrays should consider. If no such information exists perhaps someone would be able to advise me on what steps should be taken to minimise the risks associated with cleaning such facilities."

After a false start the HSE has today advised:

"HSE does not produce specific guidance on cleaning of solar panels.  Manufacturers instructions regarding the maintenance and cleaning of solar panels should always be followed, the owner of the property should make these available to you.  Although the panels generate continuously when exposed to sunlight the risk of electrocution is no greater to that from other electrical installations that you might encounter whilst carrying out cleaning, eg from external light fittings or camera installations.  There is always a risk of electrocution or arcing from any of these installations if they are badly installed or poorly maintained.
 
You should take normal precautions whilst carrying out any cleaning operation to ensure that you do not snag or cause damage to electrical cables.  Ensure that you check for overhead cables entering the building before starting work, as these cables are generally uninsulated and contact with any equipment could cause electrocution."

I remain focussed on domestic window cleaning, but thought this might be of interest.

Cheers

Smudger

  • Posts: 13453
Re: News from HSE on solar panel cleaning
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2014, 02:06:35 pm »
Thanks,

As always HSE stuff is as clear as mud 🙈🙉🙊
Darran
Never argue with an idiot, they will only bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience

PoleKing

  • Posts: 8974
Re: News from HSE on solar panel cleaning
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2014, 06:02:36 pm »
I thought it was quite clear Darran...?

Basically, there's no more risk cleaning a panel than there is if you clean an outside light or CCTV camera.
Be careful, no more fuss needed.

Pretty much what we all knew but they have more clout and it's nice to get it in writing.

What kind of shock would you get anyway? Got to be way less than 240v.
You've gotta have a pretty dodgy ticker or pacemaker for that to do any damage.
www.LanesWindowCleaning.com

It's just the internet. Try not to worry.

Carl2009

  • Posts: 806
Re: News from HSE on solar panel cleaning
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2014, 06:25:26 pm »
Yep, just like cleaning and outside wall light. With a carbon pole. Shooting out water. That you agitate with a brush into all the nooks and crannies. Whilst stood in a pool of water.

That sounds like a recipe for a fried window cleaner if there are any issues with the unit's installation.

PoleKing

  • Posts: 8974
Re: News from HSE on solar panel cleaning
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2014, 06:30:59 pm »
Yep, just like cleaning and outside wall light. With a carbon pole. Shooting out water. That you agitate with a brush into all the nooks and crannies. Whilst stood in a pool of water.

That sounds like a recipe for a fried window cleaner if there are any issues with the unit's installation.

True. But you have to trust the installer did his job properly.
If you did get a shock, you'd stop cleaning it.
240v light, CCTV or whatever won't hurt you.
Perhaps Steve or Alex W can tell us what voltage a panel is?
From what I found out it was double figures.
www.LanesWindowCleaning.com

It's just the internet. Try not to worry.

Re: News from HSE on solar panel cleaning
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2014, 06:32:30 pm »
LOL!  This is a funny thread! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
I will give a sensible reply later when I have more time.  I just wanna see how this plays out for a bit.  It's entertaining!

Carl2009

  • Posts: 806
Re: News from HSE on solar panel cleaning
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2014, 06:50:44 pm »

True. But you have to trust the installer did his job properly.
If you did get a shock, you'd stop cleaning it.
240v light, CCTV or whatever won't hurt you.
Perhaps Steve or Alex W can tell us what voltage a panel is?
From what I found out it was double figures.
[/quote]

They are relatively small power-wise, but are linked in series... You wouldn't have a chance to stop cleaning it as you'd be dead. As it's DC and the current is "on" all the time you wouldn't be able to let go of the pole (unlike, perhaps, A/C). The emergency services would use something that doesn't conduct electricity (like that old fibre glass pole you keep in the van but which you never use) to prise off the pole each one of your smoking fingers from your now redundant SLX before they slipped you, still warm and smouldering, into a body bag.

SolarSteve. I know I'm overegging it a bit as the risks are relatively speaking actually very low, but feel free to jump in.  :)

Dave Willis

Re: News from HSE on solar panel cleaning
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2014, 06:58:38 pm »
He won't.

PoleKing

  • Posts: 8974
Re: News from HSE on solar panel cleaning
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2014, 07:38:19 pm »
Is it really that bad?

Think I posted here a while back that no-one has ever been electrocuted from a panel.
Steve said they had.
But I don't think the evidence has been posted...
Maybe he's got a link?

Fuff-he will. Just once we have thrown 'erroneous' ideas in the ring.
www.LanesWindowCleaning.com

It's just the internet. Try not to worry.

deeege

  • Posts: 5072
Re: News from HSE on solar panel cleaning
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2014, 07:47:32 pm »
As long as you have supplied RAMS it's impossible to get electrocuted apparently. (Unless it's a rush job for Solar Steve then RAMS are not required anyway)

















Apparently.
"....and it's lend me ten pounds, I'll buy you a drink, and mother wake me early in the morning."

Re: News from HSE on solar panel cleaning
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2014, 08:12:26 pm »
I will Dave.  :P  But as you know, it will be limited.  ;) :-*

Panels vary in power output.  Hardly ever will you see a single panel on a house because the movement of electrons inside the panel is nowhere near enough to power any kind of appliance.  This is why panels are linked in strings.  These strings can be made up of many panels.  Therefore, there is an accumulative effect on the power.  You may not know where the string starts and ends.  So if you do get a faulty panel, yes I have come across them, you need to know where you are in the string.  At panel one, the power may be low, but at panel 10 it is likely to be nearly 10 times higher.  Strings go higher than 10 so the accumulative effect continues.

Look at the top picture here:  http://www.solar-panel-cleaners.com/british-gas-use-clean-solar-solutions-ltd-for-solar-panel-cleaning-at-toyota-derby

If the operator there gets a bolt from that panel, depending where he is on the string, he may get jolted from that panel, over two rows and land on the same row as the van is parked.  I was told that firsthand by the installers of that array when I was discussing with them the H&S implications of cleaning that site.  The accumulative power there is that big.

I can see from reading other posts on this thread that there is still a lot of confusion and misunderstanding about spc.  I continue to learn and even this year we will be including added features to protect our guys further.  Our RAMS is still evolving as I learn more about the risks and the control measures.

Carl 2009, the HSE guidance above is not really that helpful.  It does not tell you anything really.  That is not your fault at all.  Your manufacturers "all said....that there was little or no risk."  The HSE then says "There is always a risk of electrocution or arcing from any of these installations if they are badly installed or poorly maintained."  Who should any of us believe?

Dirty Darren "Basically, there's no more risk cleaning a panel than there is if you clean an outside light or CCTV camera.
Be careful, no more fuss needed."  That's wrong mate.  There is.  You cannot "Trust" any installer to have done their job properly.  There have been loads of cowboys doing solar stuff aver the last few years.  There are shoddy installs out there and a lot will be discovered over the next period of time.

The risks of cleaning a perfectly installed 16 panel installation on a house is relatively low.  Go to an array of any stature though and there is definite risk because you are dealing with a higher power and more can go wrong on a larger array.

I hope the above helps someone. :)  

Dave Willis

Re: News from HSE on solar panel cleaning
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2014, 08:42:11 pm »
Better.  ;)

Smudger

  • Posts: 13453
Re: News from HSE on solar panel cleaning
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2014, 09:28:56 pm »
Question:

If you clean an array and get fried and assuming you survive can you sue the owners or installers ?  Or would you yourself be at fault because as we all know water and electricity don't mix...

Having said that,  pure water does not conduct electricity so perhaps we would be safe after all...


Confuzed,  hell yes....

Darran
Never argue with an idiot, they will only bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience

MATT BATEMAN (OWC)

  • Posts: 1821
Re: News from HSE on solar panel cleaning
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2014, 09:33:28 pm »
Once your water has come into contact with a panel it aint pure no more.  ;D

Frankybadboy

  • Posts: 9022
Re: News from HSE on solar panel cleaning
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2014, 09:49:57 pm »
As long as you have supplied RAMS it's impossible to get electrocuted apparently. (Unless it's a rush job for Solar Steve then RAMS are not required anyway)

















Apparently.
he doesn't reply to that one


ive tried  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Carl2009

  • Posts: 806
Re: News from HSE on solar panel cleaning
« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2014, 10:04:15 pm »
Having said that,  pure water does not conduct electricity so perhaps we would be safe after all...

THAT is the best one yet!. Pure water doesn't conduct electricity. Where on earth did you hear that! ::)roll

PoleKing

  • Posts: 8974
Re: News from HSE on solar panel cleaning
« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2014, 10:05:18 pm »
I will Dave.  :P  But as you know, it will be limited.  ;) :-*

Panels vary in power output.  Hardly ever will you see a single panel on a house because the movement of electrons inside the panel is nowhere near enough to power any kind of appliance.  This is why panels are linked in strings.  These strings can be made up of many panels.  Therefore, there is an accumulative effect on the power.  You may not know where the string starts and ends.  So if you do get a faulty panel, yes I have come across them, you need to know where you are in the string.  At panel one, the power may be low, but at panel 10 it is likely to be nearly 10 times higher.  Strings go higher than 10 so the accumulative effect continues.

Look at the top picture here:  http://www.solar-panel-cleaners.com/british-gas-use-clean-solar-solutions-ltd-for-solar-panel-cleaning-at-toyota-derby

If the operator there gets a bolt from that panel, depending where he is on the string, he may get jolted from that panel, over two rows and land on the same row as the van is parked.  I was told that firsthand by the installers of that array when I was discussing with them the H&S implications of cleaning that site.  The accumulative power there is that big.

I can see from reading other posts on this thread that there is still a lot of confusion and misunderstanding about spc.  I continue to learn and even this year we will be including added features to protect our guys further.  Our RAMS is still evolving as I learn more about the risks and the control measures.

Carl 2009, the HSE guidance above is not really that helpful.  It does not tell you anything really.  That is not your fault at all.  Your manufacturers "all said....that there was little or no risk."  The HSE then says "There is always a risk of electrocution or arcing from any of these installations if they are badly installed or poorly maintained."  Who should any of us believe?

Dirty Darren "Basically, there's no more risk cleaning a panel than there is if you clean an outside light or CCTV camera.
Be careful, no more fuss needed."  That's wrong mate.  There is.  You cannot "Trust" any installer to have done their job properly.  There have been loads of cowboys doing solar stuff aver the last few years.  There are shoddy installs out there and a lot will be discovered over the next period of time.

The risks of cleaning a perfectly installed 16 panel installation on a house is relatively low.  Go to an array of any stature though and there is definite risk because you are dealing with a higher power and more can go wrong on a larger array.

I hope the above helps someone. :)  


Helps a bit, for me.
Still no mention of how many volts are/could be conduct though.
The thing about the electricity jumping you back to the van is obviously hyperbole.
When someone jumps onto a train track to commit suicide they're not thrown off are they? (this is my understanding anyway)
Steve, can you give a range what 'could' the voltage be at one end of the 'string'(?) what could it be at the other.
When I say could, I don't mean in the desert 60degrees c blazing sunshine i mean realistically.
www.LanesWindowCleaning.com

It's just the internet. Try not to worry.

PoleKing

  • Posts: 8974
Re: News from HSE on solar panel cleaning
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2014, 10:06:21 pm »
Having said that,  pure water does not conduct electricity so perhaps we would be safe after all...

THAT is the best one yet!. Pure water doesn't conduct electricity. Where on earth did you hear that! ::)roll

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20060908084034AAwOvMq
www.LanesWindowCleaning.com

It's just the internet. Try not to worry.

Carl2009

  • Posts: 806
Re: News from HSE on solar panel cleaning
« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2014, 10:08:20 pm »
Having said that,  pure water does not conduct electricity so perhaps we would be safe after all...

THAT is the best one yet!. Pure water doesn't conduct electricity. Where on earth did you hear that! ::)roll

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20060908084034AAwOvMq



Go on then.
But can I have your stuff if it all goes a bit t*ts up?


PoleKing

  • Posts: 8974
Re: News from HSE on solar panel cleaning
« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2014, 10:10:03 pm »
Having said that,  pure water does not conduct electricity so perhaps we would be safe after all...

THAT is the best one yet!. Pure water doesn't conduct electricity. Where on earth did you hear that! ::)roll

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20060908084034AAwOvMq



Go on then.
But can I have your stuff if it all goes a bit t*ts up?



You're more than welcome to all of it bud*

*edit (if you're a solicitor or summat, no, sod off) ;D
www.LanesWindowCleaning.com

It's just the internet. Try not to worry.