[telfordwindowclnr]

Better. 

I thought you'd prefer that!   

[telfordwindowclnr]

Question:

If you clean an array and get fried and assuming you survive can you sue the owners or installers ?  Or would you yourself be at fault because as we all know water and electricity don't mix...

Having said that,  pure water does not conduct electricity so perhaps we would be safe after all...


Confuzed,  hell yes....

Darran

That would be for HSE to decide. It's a very circumstantial question. It's a bit like asking if an electrician was to get a shock, who would be to blame? Him? The homeowner or his boss who didn't train him properly? He should have know not to stick his screwdriver in the plug. It's very circumstantial.

Pure water does not conduct electricity. But your pure water instantly becomes contaminated when you clean a panel so will begin to conduct instantaneously.

[telfordwindowclnr]

I will Dave.    But as you know, it will be limited.  

Panels vary in power output.  Hardly ever will you see a single panel on a house because the movement of electrons inside the panel is nowhere near enough to power any kind of appliance.  This is why panels are linked in strings.  These strings can be made up of many panels.  Therefore, there is an accumulative effect on the power.  You may not know where the string starts and ends.  So if you do get a faulty panel, yes I have come across them, you need to know where you are in the string.  At panel one, the power may be low, but at panel 10 it is likely to be nearly 10 times higher.  Strings go higher than 10 so the accumulative effect continues.

Look at the top picture here:  http://www.solar-panel-cleaners.com/british-gas-use-clean-solar-solutions-ltd-for-solar-panel-cleaning-at-toyota-derby

If the operator there gets a bolt from that panel, depending where he is on the string, he may get jolted from that panel, over two rows and land on the same row as the van is parked.  I was told that firsthand by the installers of that array when I was discussing with them the H&S implications of cleaning that site.  The accumulative power there is that big.

I can see from reading other posts on this thread that there is still a lot of confusion and misunderstanding about spc.  I continue to learn and even this year we will be including added features to protect our guys further.  Our RAMS is still evolving as I learn more about the risks and the control measures.

Carl 2009, the HSE guidance above is not really that helpful.  It does not tell you anything really.  That is not your fault at all.  Your manufacturers "all said....that there was little or no risk."  The HSE then says "There is always a risk of electrocution or arcing from any of these installations if they are badly installed or poorly maintained."  Who should any of us believe?

Dirty Darren "Basically, there's no more risk cleaning a panel than there is if you clean an outside light or CCTV camera.
Be careful, no more fuss needed."  That's wrong mate.  There is.  You cannot "Trust" any installer to have done their job properly.  There have been loads of cowboys doing solar stuff aver the last few years.  There are shoddy installs out there and a lot will be discovered over the next period of time.

The risks of cleaning a perfectly installed 16 panel installation on a house is relatively low.  Go to an array of any stature though and there is definite risk because you are dealing with a higher power and more can go wrong on a larger array.

I hope the above helps someone.  

Helps a bit, for me.
Still no mention of how many volts are/could be conduct though.
The thing about the electricity jumping you back to the van is obviously hyperbole.
When someone jumps onto a train track to commit suicide they're not thrown off are they? (this is my understanding anyway)
Steve, can you give a range what 'could' the voltage be at one end of the 'string'(?) what could it be at the other.
When I say could, I don't mean in the desert 60degrees c blazing sunshine i mean realistically.

No, the current will throw you that far apparently. DC current acts differently to AC.
The voltage 'could' be a lot. I know that's a bit vague, but it can vary a lot too.

[PoleKing]

I will Dave.    But as you know, it will be limited.  

Panels vary in power output.  Hardly ever will you see a single panel on a house because the movement of electrons inside the panel is nowhere near enough to power any kind of appliance.  This is why panels are linked in strings.  These strings can be made up of many panels.  Therefore, there is an accumulative effect on the power.  You may not know where the string starts and ends.  So if you do get a faulty panel, yes I have come across them, you need to know where you are in the string.  At panel one, the power may be low, but at panel 10 it is likely to be nearly 10 times higher.  Strings go higher than 10 so the accumulative effect continues.

Look at the top picture here:  http://www.solar-panel-cleaners.com/british-gas-use-clean-solar-solutions-ltd-for-solar-panel-cleaning-at-toyota-derby

If the operator there gets a bolt from that panel, depending where he is on the string, he may get jolted from that panel, over two rows and land on the same row as the van is parked.  I was told that firsthand by the installers of that array when I was discussing with them the H&S implications of cleaning that site.  The accumulative power there is that big.

I can see from reading other posts on this thread that there is still a lot of confusion and misunderstanding about spc.  I continue to learn and even this year we will be including added features to protect our guys further.  Our RAMS is still evolving as I learn more about the risks and the control measures.

Carl 2009, the HSE guidance above is not really that helpful.  It does not tell you anything really.  That is not your fault at all.  Your manufacturers "all said....that there was little or no risk."  The HSE then says "There is always a risk of electrocution or arcing from any of these installations if they are badly installed or poorly maintained."  Who should any of us believe?

Dirty Darren "Basically, there's no more risk cleaning a panel than there is if you clean an outside light or CCTV camera.
Be careful, no more fuss needed."  That's wrong mate.  There is.  You cannot "Trust" any installer to have done their job properly.  There have been loads of cowboys doing solar stuff aver the last few years.  There are shoddy installs out there and a lot will be discovered over the next period of time.

The risks of cleaning a perfectly installed 16 panel installation on a house is relatively low.  Go to an array of any stature though and there is definite risk because you are dealing with a higher power and more can go wrong on a larger array.

I hope the above helps someone.  

Helps a bit, for me.
Still no mention of how many volts are/could be conduct though.
The thing about the electricity jumping you back to the van is obviously hyperbole.
When someone jumps onto a train track to commit suicide they're not thrown off are they? (this is my understanding anyway)
Steve, can you give a range what 'could' the voltage be at one end of the 'string'(?) what could it be at the other.
When I say could, I don't mean in the desert 60degrees c blazing sunshine i mean realistically.

No, the current will throw you that far apparently. DC current acts differently to AC.
The voltage 'could' be a lot. I know that's a bit vague, but it can vary a lot too.

C'mon Steve, give us a figure. You know you want to.
I'll start you. It is definitely less that 1 million volts and definitely more than 9v.
Stick some rough figures up...

[8weekly]

I will Dave.    But as you know, it will be limited.  

Panels vary in power output.  Hardly ever will you see a single panel on a house because the movement of electrons inside the panel is nowhere near enough to power any kind of appliance.  This is why panels are linked in strings.  These strings can be made up of many panels.  Therefore, there is an accumulative effect on the power.  You may not know where the string starts and ends.  So if you do get a faulty panel, yes I have come across them, you need to know where you are in the string.  At panel one, the power may be low, but at panel 10 it is likely to be nearly 10 times higher.  Strings go higher than 10 so the accumulative effect continues.

Look at the top picture here:  http://www.solar-panel-cleaners.com/british-gas-use-clean-solar-solutions-ltd-for-solar-panel-cleaning-at-toyota-derby

If the operator there gets a bolt from that panel, depending where he is on the string, he may get jolted from that panel, over two rows and land on the same row as the van is parked.  I was told that firsthand by the installers of that array when I was discussing with them the H&S implications of cleaning that site.  The accumulative power there is that big.

I can see from reading other posts on this thread that there is still a lot of confusion and misunderstanding about spc.  I continue to learn and even this year we will be including added features to protect our guys further.  Our RAMS is still evolving as I learn more about the risks and the control measures.

Carl 2009, the HSE guidance above is not really that helpful.  It does not tell you anything really.  That is not your fault at all.  Your manufacturers "all said....that there was little or no risk."  The HSE then says "There is always a risk of electrocution or arcing from any of these installations if they are badly installed or poorly maintained."  Who should any of us believe?

Dirty Darren "Basically, there's no more risk cleaning a panel than there is if you clean an outside light or CCTV camera.
Be careful, no more fuss needed."  That's wrong mate.  There is.  You cannot "Trust" any installer to have done their job properly.  There have been loads of cowboys doing solar stuff aver the last few years.  There are shoddy installs out there and a lot will be discovered over the next period of time.

The risks of cleaning a perfectly installed 16 panel installation on a house is relatively low.  Go to an array of any stature though and there is definite risk because you are dealing with a higher power and more can go wrong on a larger array.

I hope the above helps someone.  

Helps a bit, for me.
Still no mention of how many volts are/could be conduct though.
The thing about the electricity jumping you back to the van is obviously hyperbole.
When someone jumps onto a train track to commit suicide they're not thrown off are they? (this is my understanding anyway)
Steve, can you give a range what 'could' the voltage be at one end of the 'string'(?) what could it be at the other.
When I say could, I don't mean in the desert 60degrees c blazing sunshine i mean realistically.

No, the current will throw you that far apparently. DC current acts differently to AC.
The voltage 'could' be a lot. I know that's a bit vague, but it can vary a lot too.

C'mon Steve, give us a figure. You know you want to.
I'll start you. It is definitely less that 1 million volts and definitely more than 9v.
Stick some rough figures up...

To be fair to SPS he does share as much as he can without undermining his competitive "edge".  

[telfordwindowclnr]

Wow 8weekly! Have you had a drink this early? Was that a compliment? 

[deeege]

Wow 8weekly! Have you had a drink this early? Was that a compliment? 

I think your sarcasm detecter must be turned off this morning Steve. 

[Smudger]

Thanks DD for the backup😆

The problem with electricity is you can't see,smell or hear it...
I find the HSE statement totally useless because they imply it's safe to clean but it's worded so that should some1 get shocked they will be at fault.

Surely any install should be passed off as safe and be inspected yearly?

Also, does the voltage increase with the number of panels ?  You can wire a 10 car batts together and still be 12 volts or turn them into 120 volts

I know Steve likes to keep his research close to his chest, but I think he is misguided as the contracts he has won are more due to his business acumen, pricing and charming personality than health and safety info.

Darran

[MATT BATEMAN (OWC)]

Having said that,  pure water does not conduct electricity so perhaps we would be safe after all...

THAT is the best one yet!. Pure water doesn't conduct electricity. Where on earth did you hear that!

It isn't water that conducts electricity, it's the particles in it. This is why sea water conducts electricity so well. It's full of salt.

[telfordwindowclnr]

Thanks DD for the backup😆


I know Steve likes to keep his research close to his chest, but I think he is misguided as the contracts he has won are more due to his business acumen, pricing and charming personality than health and safety info.

Darran

LOL! How do you know that???

[kiral1404]

I worked in the Electrical supply industry for over 10 years.

If I was to work on solar panel cleaning I would consider what type.

ie an array is  low level to the ground use a glass fibre pole. (They don't conduct electricity,  and were used to open and close overhead line pole switches upto 1000v).
Roof mounted panels I guess you have no choice but to use carbon fibre poles.  Not sure if hybrids would reach but if so use them (think glass fibre is bottom pole).

If your that  concerned buy some electricians gloves rated upto 1000v about £40.

Pure water in theory should not conduct electricity as long as it has gone through DI process but as soon as you started cleaning, the water dripping down is impure and more likely to be conductive.

Depending on how panels are connected up either the voltage will rise or the amps. Volts don't kill its the amps. When people talk of being thrown back or off . It's not the electric thats throws you its your bodys muscles spasming.

Hope this helps understand a little

[PoleKing]

Interesting post that.
So, how many amps would kill a man?
How many amps could be in a panel (thread?) as in how many could you be connected to at one time?
And if it's your muscles spasming-surely you would only be 'jumped' back as far as your muscles would be able to take you? So not very far...

[kiral1404]

Was told many years ago think it was something like 0.1 amp.

if you consciously tried to throw yourself back you might be able to reach 6ft,  with your muscles spasming through an electric shock feasibly you could be "thrown" some distance.
Heard some stories over the years quite funny some of them but obviously not for the people concerned

[PoleKing]

.1 of an amp would kill a man?! Really?

[Dave Willis]

http://www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~p616/safety/fatal_current.html

[PoleKing]

Cheers dave. Really surprised by that.
What sort of ampage can panel realistically produce then?

[Dave Willis]

When we were at school they used to liken the voltage to a double decker bus. It could be enormous but if it traveled at one mile per hour it would only nudge you when you stepped in front of it. If it traveled at fifty miles an hour and struck you (ampage) then you're finished.
I'm no electrician (my son is) but I believe solar panels produce direct current which then goes through an inverter converting it to alternating current suitable for the grid and household use.

I'll try and find the ampage.


http://homeguides.sfgate.com/calculate-amps-solar-panel-79495.html

I'm surprised how difficult it is to find any safety information. I also find it odd that Steve can subbie out jobs (with or without RAMS) willy nilly to any windowcleaner in any postcode that suits.

So we have to assume it's pretty safe?

[telfordwindowclnr]

When we were at school they used to liken the voltage to a double decker bus. It could be enormous but if it traveled at one mile per hour it would only nudge you when you stepped in front of it. If it traveled at fifty miles an hour and struck you (ampage) then you're finished.
I'm no electrician (my son is) but I believe solar panels produce direct current which then goes through an inverter converting it to alternating current suitable for the grid and household use.

I'll try and find the ampage.


http://homeguides.sfgate.com/calculate-amps-solar-panel-79495.html

I'm surprised how difficult it is to find any safety information. I also find it odd that Steve can subbie out jobs (with or without RAMS) willy nilly to any windowcleaner in any postcode that suits.

So we have to assume it's pretty safe?

You don't know what goes on after the contactor is found Dave.  If one comes up in your area, give it a whirl and you may learn something.  Also, on residentials and as I've said before, the risk is much lower. 

[PoleKing]

When we were at school they used to liken the voltage to a double decker bus. It could be enormous but if it traveled at one mile per hour it would only nudge you when you stepped in front of it. If it traveled at fifty miles an hour and struck you (ampage) then you're finished.
I'm no electrician (my son is) but I believe solar panels produce direct current which then goes through an inverter converting it to alternating current suitable for the grid and household use.

I'll try and find the ampage.


http://homeguides.sfgate.com/calculate-amps-solar-panel-79495.html

I'm surprised how difficult it is to find any safety information. I also find it odd that Steve can subbie out jobs (with or without RAMS) willy nilly to any windowcleaner in any postcode that suits.

So we have to assume it's pretty safe?

You don't know what goes on after the contactor is found Dave.  If one comes up in your area, give it a whirl and you may learn something.  Also, on residentials and as I've said before, the risk is much lower. 

A lot of the houses on my estate have 15 panels.
Did you say that a thread(?) can have Upto 100 Steve?
Is it oversimplifying it to say the current/ampage/voltage would be 15%?

[telfordwindowclnr]

When we were at school they used to liken the voltage to a double decker bus. It could be enormous but if it traveled at one mile per hour it would only nudge you when you stepped in front of it. If it traveled at fifty miles an hour and struck you (ampage) then you're finished.
I'm no electrician (my son is) but I believe solar panels produce direct current which then goes through an inverter converting it to alternating current suitable for the grid and household use.

I'll try and find the ampage.


http://homeguides.sfgate.com/calculate-amps-solar-panel-79495.html

I'm surprised how difficult it is to find any safety information. I also find it odd that Steve can subbie out jobs (with or without RAMS) willy nilly to any windowcleaner in any postcode that suits.

So we have to assume it's pretty safe?

You don't know what goes on after the contactor is found Dave.  If one comes up in your area, give it a whirl and you may learn something.  Also, on residentials and as I've said before, the risk is much lower. 

A lot of the houses on my estate have 15 panels.
Did you say that a thread(?) can have Upto 100 Steve?
Is it oversimplifying it to say the current/ampage/voltage would be 15%?

They call them 'strings' not threads, but I know what you mean!
Strings can have as many as the inverter will handle. Yes, it is over-simplifying. Sorry.

People still don't seem to believe me, but this is complicated stuff. If I was bluffing about the detail, how come everyone doesn't know about this?

Not a rant at you mate, I'm just saying...