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AuRavelling79

  • Posts: 25403
Re: bit miffed with facelift
« Reply #40 on: December 28, 2013, 01:58:56 pm »
>Ross

Foxy and "perfect diplomat" doesn't have the same ring to it does it?
It's a game of three halves!

Stephen Fox

  • Posts: 471
Re: bit miffed with facelift
« Reply #41 on: December 28, 2013, 02:45:48 pm »
>Ross

Foxy and "perfect diplomat" doesn't have the same ring to it does it?

 ;D

Stephen Fox

  • Posts: 471
Re: bit miffed with facelift
« Reply #42 on: December 28, 2013, 02:53:46 pm »
You implied mark Munro only preferred gardiners poles because Alex gave him a brush to test out.  :D

That's kind of slagging someone off.

 :D

Not really.....as it was a joke. Any how that would be slagging Mark off and not anyone's clamps!!! ;D ;D ;D

kempy

  • Posts: 1442
Re: bit miffed with facelift
« Reply #43 on: December 28, 2013, 03:53:15 pm »
My bolts with the loctite on still make the clamp/lever twist 180degree the other way . Makes operation awkward and fiddilely but I can work with it like this .

Lee GLS

  • Posts: 3844
Re: bit miffed with facelift
« Reply #44 on: December 28, 2013, 03:57:00 pm »
My bolts with the loctite on still make the clamp/lever twist 180degree the other way . Makes operation awkward and fiddilely but I can work with it like this .

Kempy. If they still twist you need to nip them up some more, you might think you are tightening them up too much but you are not

wightsurf

  • Posts: 1774
Re: bit miffed with facelift
« Reply #45 on: December 28, 2013, 03:58:28 pm »
I have some spinning issues with the new clamps (that I got as a upgrade)
will these new bolts stop this then ? if so I will send you my details.

If you are referring to the lever spinning then setting the levers up correctly will usually sort this out - tighten the bolt until the clamp just holds the section below and then tighten by another full turn (360°) and then another half turn (180°). This will then hold the levers in the right place.

If for some reason the bolts need re-tightening during use then it may be that you need these new bolts/levers. If so drop me an email.





Its the need to re-tightening  them through out the day that im having problems with.
I'll email you.

Spruce

  • Posts: 8465
Re: bit miffed with facelift
« Reply #46 on: December 28, 2013, 05:47:44 pm »

It’s all about credibility. Marketing is not only to sell your products today, but also to condition future purchasers.

Overseas in South Africa, Makita Power Tools got their product into the hands of high school boys for use in their wood working classes 25 years ago. It was their belief at brand awareness would stick with the youngsters when they grew up and they would remain brand loyal. In fact it was deemed such a good idea that Bosch copied their example.

Over in the UK Vauxhall do some incredible deals on Corsa’s for driving schools. It was estimated that a large majority of learner drivers who were women bought a Corsa after passing their test as it was the car they learnt to drive in and were comfortable with. The figures for men were lower though.

I remember Facelift slagging off the new smart clamps of Gardiners about a year ago as theirs were so much better. However, we now hear about Facelift’s supplying new clamps to stop the sections spinning; they are careful to not call them upgraded clamps I see.

Will you buy your next pole from Gardiners? I would say that it’s about a 99% possibility that you will. Extending the life of your 2 poles by some discounted upgraded clamps has sold you on their poles in a couple of years’ time. It’s already a done deal. What they have also done is to take the temptation of a potential new buy from another company out of the picture.

Smart clamps = smart marketing.

Spruce, interesting post but clear up some facts... I don't think anyone at Facelift has ever 'slagged' off Gardiners clamps or anyone else's for that matter. Nor has anyone said that 'they are so much better than xxx'. In fact I don't even think 'smart' clamps were out a year ago? It is all down to preference on what people prefer to use, it's an individual matter on which is 'better'.

People will always try out different poles/tools when they need replacing regardless of any marketing involved.




Let me recall the video done at Van Fest by your young Facelift representative.
When describing the poles to Wolfie your rep said.

“First things first on features. This clamp is not a transverse clamp for very good reasons. These levers are extremely robust, extremely thick, its left handed and right handed, one finger no problem at all. Awesome breaking system … clamps that will not trap my fingers in. These clamps will never catch on a gutter.. Transverse clamps have a gap between each single one so you can catch it on a gutter…”

Whilst Gardiners was not mentioned by name, you don’t have to be a rocket scientist to know which company it was directed against – your main opposition.


We all saw the video where the new Phoenix was compared with an old worn Gardiner CLX pole. The purpose of that video was to compare the superiority of your clamps with that of Gardiners, so yes, Facelift was slagging the Gardiner product off.

Marketing does feature as a priority in all big business as it does have a bearing on purchasers. If it didn’t, advertising wouldn’t be necessary.

Why did Facelift attend Van Fest in 2012 long before your poles were officially released? To promote your product, simple. You wanted to create an interest and you did that with your promotions – it’s called marketing and a very important aspect of it. You needed to give buyers enough reason to hold back from buying an opposition product in favour of yours to be ‘eminently’ released. Why spend the money on these marketing avenues, if, as you suggest, "people will always try out different poles/tools when they need replacing regardless of any marketing involved."

I doubt anyone would have been particularly interested in buying a Phoenix if you hadn’t gone to the lengths you did by aggressively marketing your new product. After all, the Fusion pole is an example. The Phoenix arising from the ashes was the way it was expressed. I remember Mike being a little upset when I questioned the Phoenix name, as in my books, you were admitting your business wasn't good (the ashes) and this new comer would rise and change all that.

Hey! But I'm just a window cleaner; how would I know?
Success is 1% inspiration, 98% perspiration and 2% attention to detail!

The older I get, the better I was ;)

kempy

  • Posts: 1442
Re: bit miffed with facelift
« Reply #47 on: December 28, 2013, 05:59:18 pm »
The gardiner new clamps are good for longevity of your pole , but the operation is awkward . I'm getting there , but if I tighten too much the lever will praise itself one , so I slacken off a little bit more etc , then it will work for awhile ok with no problems and then say 30 mins later or so it will work too loose so that when descending the pole I have to really look at the clamp and put it the right way round before closing but again .
The clamp all too often always managers to face the other way , I've had some loctite bolts sent but they don't rectify the problem at all .

However I cope with them and it's tedious but only takes a few seconds to readjust them . Still prefere my China Classic clamp/pole to use .

But the longevity of my old slx's I'm grateful for .

I have a 2012 25ft slx which has the old style clamps but these are coming to an end , I need to update these clamps  but I'm not exactly impressed with the new style gardiner clamp in order to do it . For say a extra £30 for a upgrade that causes me a few tedious adjustments all the time doesn't tempt me .
Unless there's another upgrade/alternative to the upgraded ones on my 30ft slx .
Need to do something we've the 25ft slx as the old style clamps are starting to wear .
I've already glued them once or twice and lacquered the sections up
New clamps needed but ............

robbo333

  • Posts: 2419
Re: bit miffed with facelift
« Reply #48 on: December 28, 2013, 06:19:59 pm »
bought  phoenix 25  9 months ago  and allready top section is spinning , it really hacks me off  when  you  pay
so  much  money  and it  fails in such a short period , i would not mind  if  i used  this  pole just for top windows  but  for doing  bottoms its very important that the top section  holds. i tried lacquering  it   , works for a few days   but then wears down again. 
i  may go back to gardeners poles as they have smart clamps  , any one recommend them .

thanks



Not sure if I've missed the point but Stephen Fox has offered to sort the problem for you. I think that's good customer service after 9 months...but perhaps that's just me!
"Thank you for calling: if you have a 1st floor flat, mid terraced house, lots of dogs, no parking, no side access, or no sense of humour, please press hold!
For all other enquiries, please press1"

Spruce

  • Posts: 8465
Re: bit miffed with facelift
« Reply #49 on: December 28, 2013, 07:21:58 pm »
bought  phoenix 25  9 months ago  and allready top section is spinning , it really hacks me off  when  you  pay
so  much  money  and it  fails in such a short period , i would not mind  if  i used  this  pole just for top windows  but  for doing  bottoms its very important that the top section  holds. i tried lacquering  it   , works for a few days   but then wears down again.  
i  may go back to gardeners poles as they have smart clamps  , any one recommend them .

thanks



Not sure if I've missed the point but Stephen Fox has offered to sort the problem for you. I think that's good customer service after 9 months...but perhaps that's just me!

Robbo, you are right, that is good service. But even if Stephen sorts the problem out satisfactorily, it doesn't mean that Advanced still won't feel a bit miffed. Its just that where initially he had a problem which made him feel the way he did, now he will still feel that way but for a different reason - ie why did it happen so soon and the inconvenience of having to get it sorted. It makes no difference whether the reason why he is a bit miffed is self inflicted or not for example.

Its no different to Kempy and his issue with his upgraded clamps he can't get on with. No matter what Alex does from a goodwll point of view, he will not solve the issue he has and make Kempy happy in my view. I think that Alex has even suggested that Kempy send his pole back to Gardiners for inspection, but I may have my wires crossed on this one. (There is certainly someone on one of the Forums that Alex has asked for the pole to be returned to him which still hasn't happened.)

So the hot potato is just how far a supplier goes goodwill wise spending time and money on trying to solve the problem. Take Advance as an example. If he had said that the thinks that the Facelift poles are c..p and he will never buy another and he will tell all his friends how c..p they are, why would Stephen bother to spent time and money on him? He wouldn't as it would be a case of 'throwing good money after bad.'

Without upsetting Advance, it could also be that the problem has occurred through operator error or neglect. Tosh highlighted this with the poles that he and his missus uses. Both bought at the same time and the same poles, hers is in a state where his isn't, even although his has done more work than hers. As Tosh says, she just uses it and never maintains it, adjusting clamps when necessary, cleaning it, etc. In her case failure isn't the result of bad materials or faulty workmanship so isn't truely a warranty issue. If any repairs were carried out by the supplier FOC, then it's done on a goodwill basis. A different case was a couple of users that experienced a broken adaptor at the top of their Phoenix pole within a short period of time. In that case each of those would be a warranty claim and the owner would have every right to feel a bit miffed.

Mark Munro has a how to video out on a repair he has done on his Facelift. His pole wasn't a year old but has seen some heavy useage. He didn't seem upset that his pole was slipping as he knew that it was due to the 'abuse' or punishment he had given it.


Success is 1% inspiration, 98% perspiration and 2% attention to detail!

The older I get, the better I was ;)

Alex Gardiner

  • Posts: 7742
Re: bit miffed with facelift
« Reply #50 on: December 28, 2013, 07:27:59 pm »
The gardiner new clamps are good for longevity of your pole , but the operation is awkward . I'm getting there , but if I tighten too much the lever will praise itself one , so I slacken off a little bit more etc , then it will work for awhile ok with no problems and then say 30 mins later or so it will work too loose so that when descending the pole I have to really look at the clamp and put it the right way round before closing but again .
The clamp all too often always managers to face the other way , I've had some loctite bolts sent but they don't rectify the problem at all .

However I cope with them and it's tedious but only takes a few seconds to readjust them . Still prefere my China Classic clamp/pole to use .

But the longevity of my old slx's I'm grateful for .

I have a 2012 25ft slx which has the old style clamps but these are coming to an end , I need to update these clamps  but I'm not exactly impressed with the new style gardiner clamp in order to do it . For say a extra £30 for a upgrade that causes me a few tedious adjustments all the time doesn't tempt me .
Unless there's another upgrade/alternative to the upgraded ones on my 30ft slx .
Need to do something we've the 25ft slx as the old style clamps are starting to wear .
I've already glued them once or twice and lacquered the sections up
New clamps needed but ............

As you may have noted from my communication to others on the forum we do have new lever sets now that use a completely different locking mechanism - these have been brought out for the few clients that have an issue with the nylock bolts not holding in the correct place. I can send some of these out to you to replace those you currently have, but with your past history and posting on this issue I would personally prefer to reiterate my offer (which Spruce has recalled) to have this 4 year old pole back and check it over and set the clamps up with these new lever sets myself. This way I can be exactly sure that it is working as intended despite it being a DIY upgrade.

You have my email if you would like us to arrange a collection of your pole and we can then get this sorted out.

Spruce

  • Posts: 8465
Re: bit miffed with facelift
« Reply #51 on: December 28, 2013, 07:37:48 pm »
We have done a clamp upgrade on the SLX25 my son uses. We bought it in 2008. At first we had a problem with the levers, but once we had learnt how to adjust them correctly, my son says they are the best. He loves this pole with its clamps.

He uses my CLX22 from time to time which still has the old style clamps and he never stops moaning about them.
Success is 1% inspiration, 98% perspiration and 2% attention to detail!

The older I get, the better I was ;)

Stephen Fox

  • Posts: 471
Re: bit miffed with facelift
« Reply #52 on: December 28, 2013, 10:35:37 pm »

Let me recall the video done at Van Fest by your young Facelift representative.
When describing the poles to Wolfie your rep said.

“First things first on features. This clamp is not a transverse clamp for very good reasons. These levers are extremely robust, extremely thick, its left handed and right handed, one finger no problem at all. Awesome breaking system … clamps that will not trap my fingers in. These clamps will never catch on a gutter.. Transverse clamps have a gap between each single one so you can catch it on a gutter…”

Whilst Gardiners was not mentioned by name, you don’t have to be a rocket scientist to know which company it was directed against – your main opposition.


We all saw the video where the new Phoenix was compared with an old worn Gardiner CLX pole. The purpose of that video was to compare the superiority of your clamps with that of Gardiners, so yes, Facelift was slagging the Gardiner product off.

Marketing does feature as a priority in all big business as it does have a bearing on purchasers. If it didn’t, advertising wouldn’t be necessary.

Why did Facelift attend Van Fest in 2012 long before your poles were officially released? To promote your product, simple. You wanted to create an interest and you did that with your promotions – it’s called marketing and a very important aspect of it. You needed to give buyers enough reason to hold back from buying an opposition product in favour of yours to be ‘eminently’ released. Why spend the money on these marketing avenues, if, as you suggest, "people will always try out different poles/tools when they need replacing regardless of any marketing involved."

I doubt anyone would have been particularly interested in buying a Phoenix if you hadn’t gone to the lengths you did by aggressively marketing your new product. After all, the Fusion pole is an example. The Phoenix arising from the ashes was the way it was expressed. I remember Mike being a little upset when I questioned the Phoenix name, as in my books, you were admitting your business wasn't good (the ashes) and this new comer would rise and change all that.

Hey! But I'm just a window cleaner; how would I know?

Spruce, once again there is a little adjustment to be made for the facts...

The comments Mike made are to do with transverse clamps, not another brand. Gardiners are far from the only brand to have these clamps. You interpret it how you like but in reality, it was not pointed at anyone in particular - we actually looked at making a pole with transverse clamps then realised that they are not the best solution for the job.

As for the video made, i think you are neglecting to mention it was in response to a Gardiner video attempting to 'slag off', as you put it, the brand new Phoenix range. It was simply highlighting points Alex had made and shedding light on the facts. I'm guessing you haven't seen that though? Alex took the video down pretty quickly..

I'm not sure Mike has ever been upset about anyone questioning the Phoenix name, infact calling it that was intentional, Facelift had a fantastic name but had got a bit old in the tooth with risk of it becoming a has-been. Calling the new range Phoenix, (apart from being a pretty cool name!) was for a reason - rising from the ashes as it has done.

That said your are right about marketing, you need to shout above the other market stalls to be noticed because it works.  Personally, i think anyone who sticks to one brand, of a consumable is a little short sighted, i constantly try out different products for certain things as i know nothing is the be all and end all and i could be surprised by trying something new. Worst case i go back to what i liked best.  :)

Mike @ Facelift

  • Posts: 291
Re: bit miffed with facelift
« Reply #53 on: December 30, 2013, 07:30:29 pm »
I knew power tools would get a mention...

kempy

  • Posts: 1442
Re: bit miffed with facelift
« Reply #54 on: December 30, 2013, 08:02:37 pm »
Thanks for that Alex , if you want to send me the latest upgrade lever system out then I'd be grateful .
Seems strange to get a upgrade  " upon a recent upgrade"  if there was only a few of us with problems .
But  hey ho ,

If I was to upgrade my 2012 25ft SLX ' would I get

a) the upgraded new clamps with bolts
b) the upgraded new clamps with the other additional loctite bolts - no improvement

Or

c) the LATEST UPGRADED CLAMPS with this latest LEVER SETS

Seems confusing , just don't want to purchase the first version of upgraded clamps if another upgrade has already superseded the initial one .
Does every new clamp upgrade now come with a new LEVER SET upgrade ?

Cheers anyway , much appreciated

Alex Gardiner

  • Posts: 7742
Re: bit miffed with facelift
« Reply #55 on: December 30, 2013, 08:46:03 pm »
Thanks for that Alex , if you want to send me the latest upgrade lever system out then I'd be grateful .
Seems strange to get a upgrade  " upon a recent upgrade"  if there was only a few of us with problems .
But  hey ho ,

If I was to upgrade my 2012 25ft SLX ' would I get

a) the upgraded new clamps with bolts
b) the upgraded new clamps with the other additional loctite bolts - no improvement

Or

c) the LATEST UPGRADED CLAMPS with this latest LEVER SETS

Seems confusing , just don't want to purchase the first version of upgraded clamps if another upgrade has already superseded the initial one .
Does every new clamp upgrade now come with a new LEVER SET upgrade ?

Cheers anyway , much appreciated

Hi Kempy

We do have a policy of continual development so a product rarely stays static. I have a policy that if I have thought of an improvement I would like everyone to have it as quickly as possible. This can lead to minor changes year on year, which we do keep track of. If just 1 or 2 clients have an issue with something this can prompt me to look at ways of improving if I feel there is a benefit to all. With this latest 'tweak' I feel that there is a long term improvement even if the majority will not notice the difference.

If you were to purchase a Smart Clamp upgrade kit now then it would be of the latest specification.

With regard to your 2009 SLX30 that you have fitted the smart clamps to, I can certainly arrange for the latest levers sets to be sent out at no cost (as we will do for anyone that feels they need them). However if you felt that you could part company with it for just 4 days I would rather have it collected from you and examined in my workshop and then fit new lever sets and set it up as perfectly as it can be before returning it to you. This way I would be most happy about it performing  to the best of its ability given its age. It is difficult to troubleshoot such things without the pole in front of me so if I had it back I could see exactly why it is not working as you would like it to. Could you email me and we can arrange this for you.


ben M

  • Posts: 4720
Re: bit miffed with facelift
« Reply #56 on: December 30, 2013, 08:55:32 pm »
Thanks for that Alex , if you want to send me the latest upgrade lever system out then I'd be grateful .
Seems strange to get a upgrade  " upon a recent upgrade"  if there was only a few of us with problems .
But  hey ho ,

If I was to upgrade my 2012 25ft SLX ' would I get

a) the upgraded new clamps with bolts
b) the upgraded new clamps with the other additional loctite bolts - no improvement

Or

c) the LATEST UPGRADED CLAMPS with this latest LEVER SETS

Seems confusing , just don't want to purchase the first version of upgraded clamps if another upgrade has already superseded the initial one .
Does every new clamp upgrade now come with a new LEVER SET upgrade ?

Cheers anyway , much appreciated

Hi Kempy

We do have a policy of continual development so a product rarely stays static. I have a policy that if I have thought of an improvement I would like everyone to have it as quickly as possible. This can lead to minor changes year on year, which we do keep track of. If just 1 or 2 clients have an issue with something this can prompt me to look at ways of improving if I feel there is a benefit to all. With this latest 'tweak' I feel that there is a long term improvement even if the majority will not notice the difference.

If you were to purchase a Smart Clamp upgrade kit now then it would be of the latest specification.

With regard to your 2009 SLX30 that you have fitted the smart clamps to, I can certainly arrange for the latest levers sets to be sent out at no cost (as we will do for anyone that feels they need them). However if you felt that you could part company with it for just 4 days I would rather have it collected from you and examined in my workshop and then fit new lever sets and set it up as perfectly as it can be before returning it to you. This way I would be most happy about it performing  to the best of its ability given its age. It is difficult to troubleshoot such things without the pole in front of me so if I had it back I could see exactly why it is not working as you would like it to. Could you email me and we can arrange this for you.


you are too kind, i wasn't happy with 2 levers sets,i didn't ask anything,i bought them  ;)

kempy

  • Posts: 1442
Re: bit miffed with facelift
« Reply #57 on: December 30, 2013, 09:16:38 pm »
I'm happy to just have the lever sets sent no problem , and I'll purchase the 25ft slx new lever updated clamps at the same time , therefore postage all in one go .
Cheapest solution .
If you let your office girls know about this  order in terms of me

1- buying  the 25ft new smart LEVER upgraded clamps
2- 30ft slx LEVER  Freebies thrown in .
3- Plus I need to buy the hard bristled CILL brush for facia cleaning with Quik loq socket on .

Be superb that , and be ok with me .postage all done on a one go

No need to send my 2009 slx pole back , it's used now occasionally , few times a day , and I've just about got the tightness bang on and the adjustments I just tolerate with and I'm ok with .
It is a 2009 pole but I do use others as well so since 2012 it wasn't used much at all .
Just I need it as and when and like I say it's better than it was , no need to mess about with postage etc

Anyway , it's lacquered up , and with your latest invention upgrade I'm sure it will improve it .

Cheers David kemp .

And in 2014 I will be posting nothing to do with this again .
We all need to move on .... Sorted .
If the new levers work that is .... ;D ;D
Cheers

G & M

  • Posts: 513
Re: bit miffed with facelift
« Reply #58 on: December 30, 2013, 09:32:45 pm »
Stephen I have a problem with the clamps as well and have had it for a while, can I get the upgraded clamps sent out to me. I bought the pole from Sure Clean Systems and I live in the Republic of Ireland.

Regards
Michael

Alex Gardiner

  • Posts: 7742
Re: bit miffed with facelift
« Reply #59 on: December 30, 2013, 09:38:36 pm »
I'm happy to just have the lever sets sent no problem , and I'll purchase the 25ft slx new lever updated clamps at the same time , therefore postage all in one go .
Cheapest solution .
If you let your office girls know about this  order in terms of me

1- buying  the 25ft new smart LEVER upgraded clamps
2- 30ft slx LEVER  Freebies thrown in .
3- Plus I need to buy the hard bristled CILL brush for facia cleaning with Quik loq socket on .

Be superb that , and be ok with me .postage all done on a one go

No need to send my 2009 slx pole back , it's used now occasionally , few times a day , and I've just about got the tightness bang on and the adjustments I just tolerate with and I'm ok with .
It is a 2009 pole but I do use others as well so since 2012 it wasn't used much at all .
Just I need it as and when and like I say it's better than it was , no need to mess about with postage etc

Anyway , it's lacquered up , and with your latest invention upgrade I'm sure it will improve it .

Cheers David kemp .

And in 2014 I will be posting nothing to do with this again .
We all need to move on .... Sorted .
If the new levers work that is .... ;D ;D
Cheers


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