[mark dew]

I would even suggest that WFP will end up being the best thing that could happen to a trad WC. I noted Ross posted somewhere that his gang picked up an ex WFP job for double the price by doing it trad.
Trad is a personal hands on touch compared to WFP which is done from a distance.
I suspect there will come a time when it will be something of a status symbol for certain properties to be cleaned "the old-fashiioned way," and will pay an increasing premium to have it done that way.

I've told those on here the very same thing, and they just ignore it.
They shout me down for everything else I say, but never comment on that.
It's because it's true.
Nice one Mark, a balanced opinion.

Well done Ross again. Not afraid to be honest after spending a lot of money.
Most around here are too proud to admit it's faults.
Wfp is the best thing that's ever happened to me.

squeaky, you are a funny chap. You remind me of that saying, "any (trad) port in a storm." 

[rosskesava]

When a ladder man falls and his insurance co. says "he should've been using a safer method" (as per Health and Safety guidelines) and refuses to pay out - and his widow sues the insurer and fails, then sues the householder - this will get into the papers - then customers will be fearful of [/i]nothaving their windows done by wfp.

One small point but very vital - if a risk assessment had been done then it is perfectly ok and legal to use ladders within reason.

I take the point about customers perception according to tv and newspaper hype. I've also milked that one for all it's worth to justify not doing a good job, but to do the job quicker.

What does worry me and has not been mentioned in this topic, for wfp users, is those vehicles going around with large tanks of water that are not properly fitted.

It's fine that the cost of setting up an RO sytem is getting cheaper but what about the 500ltr or whatever tank in the back of the van in a pile up or even a low speed shunt?

Hi Dave

  yaaaaawwwwwwnnnnnnnnnnn

Sorry if this subject is tedious for you but a lot of w/c's whether trad or wfp will be reading this topic. I actually think it's one of the better wfp's/trad topics that I've read so far. What point are you actually making?

Cheers

[steve k]

I think the point is...how many times is this debate aired??? it`s absolutely and diabolically BORING!!
If you want to use WFP...use it!
If you want to use TRAD...use it!

If your happy with how you work...carry on!
If you are not happy...change how you work or get another job!

NO-ONE on here has to explain to anyone why and how they decide to carry out their business...just get up and go to work...simple.
It`s the same old stuff over and over again

[Morph]

Go to sleep you!
Oh, sorry I forgot, you can't

[Terry_Burrows]

The one thing I have started to notice is,that certain people and in the trade,are trying to push the squeegee under the mat, and as soon as I or some one dare mention a slight disadvantage to a wfp,they all go up in arms,like I stoll there sweets, any one else noticed this I could name them but I wont
or is it there so scared to get the wfp a reputation of the not so nice kind

just having a look on whats going on

[steve k]

PJ,
funny enough...had a great sleep after reading through yet another WFP-TRAD debate...better than any sleeping pills

[Ian_Giles]

Steve, re the WFP v trad debate, of course it keeps getting repeated, and it always will.
Don't forget, there are always fresh faces appearing on the forum and having the pro's and cons aired are important.
Just as just about every question about window cleaning you can think of also gets repeated, and you don't haveto take part in the debate or even read the thread at al if you are not interested.

Ross for instance takes a somewhat different view of health & safety issues regards ladders when compared to Philip Hanson, both are very well read on the subject, but both come out with a different take on the issue.
I for instance believe that Ross's is the viewpoint that is currently the most relevant, but Philip's will be the line that will increasingly be the more accurate one.
Within 5 years ladders will be access only (just my opinion).
It's all about reducing risk and the way to really reduce that risk is stop working off ladders.
There are times when ladders HAVE to be used, but they really are not very often so far as window cleaning is concerned.
In 2 years of WFP I have used a ladder to clean windows (no, not actually CLEAN the windows ) on only a couple of occasions, more often for access to  a flat roof.
On one of the occasions it was to do an initial clean, which is quite impossible to do with WFP.
But even that is something that they could insist is done off a platform.

As WFP becomes yet more popular it will become increasingly obvious to those that set the regs that ladders CAN be eliminated where window cleaning is concerned.
The alternative is not expensive.

Hell, in the construction industry you are not allowed to work off a step ladder, even those are access only.

When the insurance industry become fully aware of WFP, how long  do you think it will be before they really rack up the cost of public liability for those who wish to work off ladders?
At the moment (at least for the most part I believe) whether you are WFP or ladders your insurance is no different in cost.
But you can bet your life that is going to change. It may take a couple of years, insurance companies will want to see the difference in claims between the two before they start  reducing the the cost for WFP and racheting it up for the ladder user.

The writing is on the wall for using ladders for anything other than access only. Even now, were I an employer there is no way I would want anyone working off a ladder while working for me.

Terry,
The squeegee will always be there, the only thing that will go will be the ladder.
Trad methods will ALWAYS be needed, I may be WFP, but I use my trad gear daily and always will

I gotta get to work, big day ahead

Ian

[Moderator David@stives]

When a ladder man falls and his insurance co. says "he should've been using a safer method" (as per Health and Safety guidelines) and refuses to pay out - and his widow sues the insurer and fails, then sues the householder - this will get into the papers - then customers will be fearful of [/i]nothaving their windows done by wfp.

One small point but very vital - if a risk assessment had been done then it is perfectly ok and legal to use ladders within reason.

I take the point about customers perception according to tv and newspaper hype. I've also milked that one for all it's worth to justify not doing a good job, but to do the job quicker.

What does worry me and has not been mentioned in this topic, for wfp users, is those vehicles going around with large tanks of water that are not properly fitted.

It's fine that the cost of setting up an RO sytem is getting cheaper but what about the 500ltr or whatever tank in the back of the van in a pile up or even a low speed shunt?

Hi Dave

yaaaaawwwwwwnnnnnnnnnnn

Sorry if this subject is tedious for you but a lot of w/c's whether trad or wfp will be reading this topic. I actually think it's one of the better wfp's/trad topics that I've read so far. What point are you actually making?

Cheers

Ross

I was just showing my boredom on one point and one point only.
#
And that was a certain person on every single wfp debate jumping in with both feet saying wfp is rubbish.

Thats all.

And when someone asks the question shall i change to wfp and someone instantly says no ,because they are rubbish without finding out why the person wants to change.

Well i got annoyed

Sorry to everyone

Dave

[steve k]

Ian,
the topic has been thrashed out countless times over and over again without anyone actually getting anywhere.
If a newcomer wants to know the differences, they could do a search or a locked, read only post could be put on the site with links to all the various debates.

here are just a few I found in a minute or so:

http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=14495.0

http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=13462.0

http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=13957.0

http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=10337.0

http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=12403.0

http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=12947.0

and there are so many more.

on the whole...seems to be the same old people going over the same old ground. Just my thoughts.

[Morph]

I disagree with you Steve.

The examples you have cited are not great long debates and they all have different people with viewpoints.  True, most have regular commentators adding their strong opinions repeatedly, but often a topic is begun by someone who considers themself a novice, maybe read past posts, but hopes for some current reaction.  that's a plus about this forum.  If it bores you because you don't need any of this kind of info, then don't read, or don't post.

I have noticed that on most issues there are only about 50 regular posters, maybe a few more than that, yet thousands read only and never post.

It often depends on your interpretation/take on the way a topic is going.
For example, I for one really appreciated the work you put in to posting your calander pics on here a while back.  It was educational, encouraging and entertaining.
But some could have interpreted it as smug and gloating in front of al the new ones who are frantically swatting up thinking they are getting on the pure water gold rush, as if you were showing them what they've missed out on.
I am certain you didn't mean it that way, but you see my point?
So... you are bored, either don't comment, or add something helpful to the undecided.
 

[steve k]

Pj,
don`t know how that could have been seen as gloating...looks like and felt like hard work...
I put that on, by the way, just to inject something a bit different.
I help anyone and my post history reflects that...I don`t usually ask for help...but happily give advice where I can.

Anyway...back to the original point...I can see your point really.
It sometimes feels like there are only about 20 of us who regularly contribute and as such, an argument like this can leave 1 or 2 of those pretty frustrated at the lack of ground giving.
BUT...as you say...there are many others who log on to just read and to them, it might be helpful...so fair point. I`ll keep off the post.

[Sir Squeaky]

The writing is on the wall for using ladders for anything other than access only. Even now, were I an employer there is no way I would want anyone working off a ladder while working for me.

Ian you say some cobblers sometimes! :
You made me do work for you with ladders on far more dangerous stuff than I'd do now.
The writings not on the wall, that's just a wfp'ers dig.

Oh, and Dave.....

And when someone asks the question shall i change to wfp and someone instantly says no ,because they are rubbish without finding out why the person wants to change.

Still haven't actually read that post then...? :
Or one after, saying that I never said "rubbish" or anything of the sort.
Are my posts invisible to you?
If so, why comment on them?

[Moderator David@stives]

Squeeky

I think you know what i was on about.

the same arguement you have every week ,you just keep winding every one up.

There is nothing wrong with wfp it cleans perfectly well for loads of people on here.

I never knock ladders, i only reccomend wfp for safety nothing else.

That is all i am going to say on the subject.

[Sir Squeaky]

i only reccomend wfp for safety nothing else.

That is all i am going to say on the subject.

Same here, I just never put it down in that post, just gave him the benefits of trad, that's all. That wouldn't be fair on a "newbie".

That's enough for me now too.

Cheers.(it is boring now).

[Sarah Sarill]

Bloody Hell guys.  Enough  is enough now.

Everyone who uses wfp agrees that initially it CAN have its problems mainly down to technique and the state of the windows.  Once mastered this method gives as good a finish and result as traditional.  The biggest plus for this method is safety and the faster speed the MAJORITY of users have reported.

This learning  curve is not different to that of a traditional learner - meaning that a good, streak and run free clean takes time to master.  The results when proficient are great also.

It can be, without doubt a slower, more dangerous method of cleaning but NOT a WRONG way. 

Everyone knows the prose and cons of each method but until the HSE are more specific on the use of ladders it is an individuals choice and right as to what method they choose.

I would endorse wfp all the way but dont wish, or want to ram it down anyones throat.  If they cannot or dont want to see the REAL benefits of using wfp without trying it for themselves then that is their CHOICE.

Cant we just accept that there are still many w/c who do not want to change and let them be because personally I feel this on-going, repetitive banter is now not condusive to this forum. 

Newbies (or converties) should feel able to ask genuine questions about both methods and be given clear advice on personal findings and not let things turn into a 'them and us' situation at every opportunity.

My first and only posting on this thread but I think it should be locked as its getting too personal again.

Sarah

[genesis_windows]

 

[Moderator David@stives]

 

[Sarah Sarill]

hey, I thought you had said your last word on the subject. 

Oh, I said that too didn't I - LOL

Sarah

[Ian_Giles]

Nah, we don't need to lock it yet Sarah, there is no rude stuff being thrown around as yet.

Squeaks,
Years ago I din't give a monkeys about myself or anyone else climbing ladders, but in todays current climate there is not a cat in hells chance that I would employ someone and have them work off a ladder, and that has nothing to do with WFP either.
Also Rog I didn't say that once cleaned with WFP they never get dirty again either, merely that they stay cleaner longer, and that is an undisputable fact.
Of course they can be totally filthy 24 hours later regardless of the method used to clean the windows, but extreme conditions notwithstanding, windows cleaned with WFP do stay clean longer as there is no residue left on the glass for dust to stick to.

I'll agree to differ with you regards the overall finish, if the trad cleaner is prepared to wash all of the frames and doors down then the finish will be no different.
However, if you don't wash the frames when cleaning trad then WFP will give a better overall finish.
And most window cleaners do not clean the frames.
With WFP most window cleaners DO clean the frames.

I will also agree that there are occasions when the windows would be better done with trad, the glass just doesn't come out as good done WFP.
I personally find that to be the case more on comercial stuff rather than domestic.
As I said in a n earlier post on this thread, there are some accounts I turn up to after a month and they really do look as if they were cleaned the day before.

The larger the account, the greater the advantage of WFP, and of course on even a small georgian account the WFP will be way quicker, and on just about any account where you are having to buff the glass dry with your scrim or microfibre, the finish WILL be superior.

WFP is of course more expensive to buy and maintain, you'll have pump problems, flowrate problems, battery problems, you will have to replace R/O membranes, change filters, buy resin, water will leak in your vehicle, joints will leak, you will always be getting wet clothes (well I do anyway ) Hoses split, relays burn out, you forget to charge the battery, your water bill (if you are on a meter) will increase.
There is always something to tweak with your system and so on and so on.

But once you have got everything set up just so the work itself is so much easier!!
It may still leave you tired and drained after a long day, but it will be nothing like working off ladders all day long.
It will take a few months to get the hang of things and to relearn the best ways to clean houses that you have cleaned trad for several years, but oh, what a difference when it starts to come together, it really is small wonder that so many who go the WFP route enthuse so.

For those that wish to remain trad (like Squeaks) then more power to your elbows (and knees too )
You'll be ok for a couple more years yet, but the time WILL come when you will no longer be allowed to work off ladders.

Ian

[AuRavelling79]

.....

But once you have got everything set up just so the work itself is so much easier!!

It may still leave you tired and drained after a long day, but it will be nothing like working off ladders all day long.

It will take a few months to get the hang of things and to relearn the best ways to clean houses that you have cleaned trad for several years, but oh, what a difference when it starts to come together, it really is small wonder that so many who go the WFP route enthuse so.


Ian

Absolutely correct mate!