[Sir Squeaky]

Interesting last few posts....
It seems a bit more balanced now.
Not  The World Vs Me !

One thing though Ian, if the windows are so clean when you turn up, then they won't want them done.
You need them to get dirty!
Car manufactures would be knackered if they never went wrong.

Definately disagree with the better finish though, you listed some of my examples already.
You're always going to defend wfp, as it's cost you daft money.

Anyway, work time....

[Paul Coleman]

Interesting last few posts....
It seems a bit more balanced now.
Not  The World Vs Me !

One thing though Ian, if the windows are so clean when you turn up, then they won't want them done.
You need them to get dirty!
Car manufactures would be knackered if they never went wrong.

Definately disagree with the better finish though, you listed some of my examples already.
You're always going to defend wfp, as it's cost you daft money.

Anyway, work time....

Rog.
I will say that on most of my jobs, WFP is the best option.  On about 10 - 15% of them - it isn't.  It's still the safest option, but not necessarily the best one regarding work quality.  Sometimes this is due to the customer not maintaining their frames - sometimes not.
This may also be due to my shortage of experience with it but I don't feel that this applies to all such jobs.  I would still like to get my business to a WFP only situation so this may mean me avoiding particular types of work.
I don't see the point of buying a Ferrari and driving around in a Mini.  Although some of the passengers (customers) may dislike the acceleration they get in a Ferrari because it scares them (until they get used to it), this does not mean that I will be driving around in a Mini in case the the passengers dislike the Ferrari.
Actually, I dislike the use of analogies as I would rather a point of view stand on its own merits.

The fact is though that around 85 - 90% of my customers are OK with WFP (or so I assume as they have not complained) and a few actually have said that they prefer it.  Also, I work more safely with it.  I readily admit that it's not suitable for all eventualities but, rather than backtrack to ladders permanently, I would prefer to only backtrack temporarily while I take on WFP friendly work only.
That way everyone gets what they want.  I get a WFP friendly business.  The customers get the windows cleaned in their preferred manner.  Window cleaners using ladders get a bit more work to go for.

As for other people using WFP, I have seen no other domestic window cleaners around my way using it.  Maybe they all got peed off and went for commercial.  I have only seen larger companies using it on commercial properties around here.  I've even had the p taken out of me by a couple of guys (it doesn't just happen to you Rog)     .  They got a cockeyed view of WFP as I was doing a very dirty first clean with it.  I'm happy for them to think it is rubbish as it's not my problem   

[Morph]

Thanks for your viewpoints so far on this topic guys.

This was not posted here to be Squeaky against the world, even though that gives him a nice ego boost

The issues won't go away, so I thought, without arguing, and instead of 'sniping' type comments, let's have a thread to see the pros and cons of our preferred method.

Keep 'em coming!  I'm learning from all this shared experience.
And I too have views, 18 years trad and now 5 months wfp.

I find the discussion fascinating, but -  I'm sure someone outside the trade would be bored witless by now!

Try not to see this as an industrial dispute.
Just rationally weigh things up.  No-one needs to defend their corner.
Having said all that, feel free!  I don't make the rules, I'm just learning as I said.
And I am very pleased to have found this forum, and great that you share your experience.

[williamx]

Thanks for your viewpoints so far on this topic guys.

This was not posted here to be Squeaky against the world, even though that gives him a nice ego boost

The issues won't go away, so I thought, without arguing, and instead of 'sniping' type comments, let's have a thread to see the pros and cons of our preferred method.

Keep 'em coming!  I'm learning from all this shared experience.
And I too have views, 18 years trad and now 5 months wfp.



With regard the pros and cons.

I cleaned a mansion last month, and every single window was leaded, if you had to use a ladder you would need a triple at least, there was in excess of 40 windows.

I quoted £60.00 and after they had tried and failed to get me to drop the price, I carried on.

Well 42 minutes later I had finshed, and every single pane of glass gleamed like diamonds.

The customer came out and checked the work, which he was over the moon by, I asked if I could check the standard of the clean from the inside, he had no problem with this, and all the glass was gleaming, no spots - runs or smearing.

The customer asked how my system worked and could he clean his windows using his hose pipe and brush.

I then spent another hour showing and explaining how a wfp sytems works and how a hose pipe with tap water would not, because of the imputrites in his water.

Now this customer use to have a trad cleaner who charged them £25.00, which is a crazy price.

I would have charged £200 if I had to do them the trad way, and it would have took me at least 6 hours or more to do.

I now have a new client who pays me £60.00 for 42 minutes of work, and who is recomending to his neighbours, who all have the same type of house.

I also did 2 semis last week.

They already had a trad cleaner, but they wern't happy with him.  Anyway the glass in the window were clean in a fashion, but the frames were minging and let the whole job down.

I needed to use over 150 litres of water on these 2 fronts, which was normally more than I need for a first clean, but the windows were running loads of dirt from them.

After I had finshed I had 2 more happy customers, and since then I have picked up 8 more from their recomendation.

Wfp systems do clean windows and they clean them to a very high standard, if yours don't, then there has to be a logical reason why not.

[The Fox]

I started window cleaning last year and went straight into WFP maybe that was a mistake. I only use a squeegee for front doors because of leaky letterboxes and to practise with the squeegee, by the way I am rubbish with a squeegee I just cannot get it right.
The two main reasons I did not use ladders straight away was the fact I am rubbish with a squeegee and there is a viable safe method of cleaning windows without using ladders.
I thought I could do a better job straight away with WFP, in most cases I do.
The second reason is my wife is severely disabled after a silly accident that at the time she walked away from. She fell of a moped travelling at walking speed. No different then falling of a pointer on a ground floor window. She is now virtually bed ridden and in server pain constantly and only able to get about using a wheelchair. When I say pain I mean pain to the point of being unable to touch her because she will scream in agony.
The point I am trying to get over is the human body is very delicate.
How many people have falling of a ladder that as left them disabled and unable to work ever again.
Life is dangerous, driving a car, walking down the road can lead to death or injury but if you can reduce the risk, you do. Cars are a lot safer now for the occupants; Evan with more cars on the road there is less fatal accidents for pedestrians due to the design of cars.

The introduction of WFP is the best thing ever for window cleaners for the simple reason it reduces the risk of loss of life and prevents people suffering long term injuries.
IT PROBERLEY AS SAVED SOMEONES LIFE AND PREVENTED LONG TERM DISABILITY.

To say it will never happen to you is a load of c*** it can and could end up with your death or ruin your life just like my wife’s. I wouldn’t want that to happen to my worse enemy.

As far as cleaning windows with WFP if it is done properly it works. The trouble is people think they can clean windows by scrubbing with pure water for 30 seconds and the jobs done. There is a technique just like using the squeegee it takes time to learn. You have to clean the glass panes in the correct order if you don’t you will get spotting; it just is not as simple as it looks.
I probably take just as long as someone using a ladder actually cleaning the windows, and only save time on moving and climbing the ladder.
I have only lost 2 customers because they were not happy with the results and that was my fault. Some have commented on how good the results are. And yes I use ladders for access on some jobs BUT I HAVE REDUCED THE RISK OF FALLING BY REDUCING MY USE OF LADDERS.

I average £20 per hour when working including travelling and £12 per account still only got half a round, but I have to take care of my wife as well.

THERE IS ONLY ONE PROBLEM WITH WFP AND THAT IS LACK OF TRAINING

[Terry_Burrows]

I will say this,the squee gee will never die out,wfp are good but there not gods gift try taking one inside  then the trad way will stay like or not youv dont have to buy loads a money poles,theres back flips etc,not everyone thinks there good some people do not like water every where,just to clean windows
and then theres the loads of spots storys,I am not saying go up a ladder but for all those that cant squee gee and just knock trad,think again trad will be around for many years to come yet,

[D.Salkeld_Ltd]

wfp are good but there not gods gift

That's a quote from a famouse Squeegee Man.
I think that about sums it up.

So why do we think WFP IS Gods gift?
Because we would sell our souls not to climb up and down and carry around those LADDERS!!

THAT'S the real reason!!!

Admit it!!

David

[Terry_Burrows]

read what I wrote,I am Not saying go up LADDERS

[steve k]

" AAAAHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
"PLEASE change the record...PLEASE change the record...mummy...mummy...WFP...TRAD...malteser ...robot...tablets...*&^%$...dring...roop...bobbot...HELP ME...dribble...dribble...dribble!!"

[DASERVICES]

  I've been 2 yrs in this job and the best thing I have ever done is go over to WFP
  this year. No longer do I have that feeling when your heart stops as you feel
  your ladder move. You turn up at your customers house and they have put in
  decking ( very dodgy in the winter ), they have just designed a flower bed
  in front of the window. This makes it hard and dangerous when pitching your
   ladders.

   New build houses are no longer built with the veiw of the window cleaner, I
   would say 50% of windows are considered a risk cleaning the windows. You
   cannot pitch the ladders above or below the windows but only at the side.
   Again a NO , NO, this is dangerous.

   This is where my conscience kicks into place, would I allow an employee to clean
   windows where there is even the smallest of risks. The answer is NO.
   Would I do this with ladders , a year back the answer would be yes. But now
   I would answer NO, as I have now realised I have an obligation to feed my
   family without taking risks. If anything happened to me who would feed my
   family ! Would you let a loved one do this I'm sure the answer would be NO,
   so why do we do it to our loved ones.

   I'm sure we all have had the sense when we have had used ladders that if it
   would slip we would be able to land safely. The real answer to that is NO,
   having fallen off a ladder from a low height it was over in a matter of seconds.
   If the ladder slips you have no time to react, the end result could effect
   your life permanently.

   With regards WFP not doing a good job as trad, my feeling on 90% of windows
   it does a better job than trad. Over the past couple of months I seemed to
   have bad batches of rubbers and I think the standard of rubbers have dropped.
   This is many of one things that made my mind up to switch to WFP.

   If you do a good job then there is no problems with WFP, if you rush then
   yes there will be problems.  So the comments of WFP causes spots etc.., no
   it does not if used correctly. How many times I have heard my old window
   cleaner left streaks using trad, the reason he was charging £2.50 so he aint
   going to spend the time detailing after blading the window. You get what you
   pay for.

   As the old saying goes, 'a bad workman always blames his tools'. WFP works
   and trad works, but one is safer than the other. I'm now glad I've gone down
   this route and wish other people who have not tried it out just try it for one day.
   My objective now is to do things safely for my own protection and people
   around me. What if there was a small child when it happened , my conscience
   has got the better of me and wish others would do the same. Your life is worth
   all the money in the world so use some to save your life.

   Sorry just my deap meaningful words.

   Doug

[Sir Squeaky]

" AAAAHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
"PLEASE change the record...PLEASE change the record...mummy...mummy...WFP...TRAD...malteser ...robot...tablets...*&^%$...dring...roop...bobbot...HELP ME...dribble...dribble...dribble!!"

Well said Steve! (I think )

[genesis_windows]

i have been cleaning windows for over 15 years and have used all methods to clean them.
i have over 300 costomers domestically and growing daily, only squeegee insides and have often thought when i turn up after 4 weeks that they still look clean. the idea that wfp doesnt clean as good as trad is absolute testicular nonsense and i defy anyone to find any runs or smears on any windows that i have used the pole on.
granted, some types of windows dont come up well with the system, just like you cant reach some windows traditionally but to say that you cant get as good  a result as with trad?-boll~ks.
its obviously not being done properly.
trad is here to stay, likewise wfp. but they both, when done correctly by an acomplished w/c get results

[mark dew]

  With regards WFP not doing a good job as trad, my feeling on 90% of windows
   it does a better job than trad.

I have difficulty understanding how WFP gives a better finish than trad. Or vice versa.
WFP might give a better result in the time taken, but that doesn't mean it does a better job than trad if you put the time and effort in.

I think although WC is very hard work and can be dangerous if we let it, it is not or should not be skilful to clean a window.
The window is either clean or it isn't. What can be simpler than that!!!
The true skill is in being able to continually clean quicker and safer.

I am soon to be getting WFP but only because it will widen my market and i think i can 'get away' with doing 80% of my round in a third of the time from the beginning.
As long as i can get as good a finish as i can trad i will go for the most profitable tool for the job.
Other peoples health and safety has always been important but until i came on the forums, i never questioned my own. I just looked at the window and if i thought i could do it, i just got on and struggled with it. But after reading similar situations on here and the responses to them, has made me lose my bottle a bit.
The worst i've done is jarred my knee. And that was going up a ladder too quick. That was a day a home. Now i think of personal injury in financial terms. That day would be worth over £100 to me now.
But i'm glad i've started WC trad and if i ever employ i would train them up trad (on bottom windows only).
I would even suggest that WFP will end up being the best thing that could happen to a trad WC. I noted Ross posted somewhere that his gang picked up an ex WFP job for double the price by doing it trad.
Trad is a personal hands on touch compared to WFP which is done from a distance.
I suspect there will come a time when it will be something of a status symbol for certain properties to be cleaned "the old-fashiioned way," and will pay an increasing premium to have it done that way.

[Terry_Burrows]

yep I agree with genesis ;Dits all here to stay

[Sir Squeaky]

I would even suggest that WFP will end up being the best thing that could happen to a trad WC. I noted Ross posted somewhere that his gang picked up an ex WFP job for double the price by doing it trad.
Trad is a personal hands on touch compared to WFP which is done from a distance.
I suspect there will come a time when it will be something of a status symbol for certain properties to be cleaned "the old-fashiioned way," and will pay an increasing premium to have it done that way.

I've told those on here the very same thing, and they just ignore it.
They shout me down for everything else I say, but never comment on that.
It's because it's true.
Nice one Mark, a balanced opinion.

[Moderator David@stives]

 yaaaaawwwwwwnnnnnnnnnnn

[williamx]

I would even suggest that WFP will end up being the best thing that could happen to a trad WC. I noted Ross posted somewhere that his gang picked up an ex WFP job for double the price by doing it trad.
Trad is a personal hands on touch compared to WFP which is done from a distance.
I suspect there will come a time when it will be something of a status symbol for certain properties to be cleaned "the old-fashiioned way," and will pay an increasing premium to have it done that way.

I've told those on here the very same thing, and they just ignore it.
They shout me down for everything else I say, but never comment on that.
It's because it's true.
Nice one Mark, a balanced opinion.

Rog

Yes you will pick up customers who don't want their windows done with wfp, and these customers will pay more for your services.

The same as the 200 plus customers, that I clean for now.

They want me to clean their windows with a wfp system and I know that I charge more than they use to pay with a ladder man.

[brett walker]

I think every window cleaner should be able to squeegy 

Those who have gone into wfp without learning to squeegy leave themselves at a disadvantage

We can all go on about wfp till the cows come home but the squeegy will always play a big part in window cleaning

Thinking ahead, when we are all wfp but all of a sudden something goes wrong with it and its banned and weve all forgotten how to squeegy,  but theres 1 man left doing training courses on how to mop and squeegy

Rog- squeeky clean school of traditional window cleaning

1st lesson free

Rog will say " i hate to say i told you so ... but i told you so "

time for bed i think

Brett

[AuRavelling79]

When a ladder man falls and his insurance co. says "he should've been using a safer method" (as per Health and Safety guidelines) and refuses to pay out - and his widow sues the insurer and fails, then sues the householder - this will get into the papers - then customers will be fearful of nothaving their windows done by wfp.

Especially as wfp'ers go around canvassing and ensuring that customers are aware of these prospective pitfalls.

This time last year I was just beginning to change to wfp and a customer came out and said "are you using that new waterpole thing?" I said I was and before I could explain the chap says "Good - I had someone around canvassing who said that it was illegal for you to use ladders any more."

This experience has been repeated several times especially when "Newsnight" and the Daily Mail were running stuff about this very subject. (Yes - I know claims of illegality are spurious - but it's perception that counts!)

WFP can be got into relatively cheaply now - less than a grand will homebuild you an R/O based system and a few hundred will get you started. Honestly guys - I was really hesitant and doubtful - look at my early posts - but I have not lost a single customer and even while learning during the first three months I earned a bit more than trad. (Now its about 50% more with a trolley system from my car which I am outgrowing.)

Now I feel so much safer, but feel constrained due to running out of water and hitting three figure earnings by lunch time and having to go home for a re-fill of barrels and doing another three figures on top by tea time. On domestic.

Now I will go for a van and carry 400/500 litres instead of 200 and I am confident that I will be doing the same work and save another 90 minutes a day.

Go on squeeks! You know it makes sense!

(You can still keep those few houses that cannot be done by pole - old leaky windows - rough anodised aluminium ones - to keep your hand in and charge extra for! - I've got three left myself! )

[Morph]

Well, I started this topic.  I was just interested to see what the reaction would be.  
In hindsight I should have given it the title, "Why do you do what you do?"  Or something like that.
I'm sorry.  I think, as usual, I put too controversial an edge on it.  
I don't wish to set one against another, or let apathy set in.

I'll make my point on a new topic.

ps. very good MalcG