[Rob Hall]

Photos of a slate floor you have done with understand?

So, what you see here is a sample area using Wax off and the whole area done with a 36 grit Diamond Brush.

I am happy to keep the "refund" challenge if you are

[Floor_Tony]

So you used wax off first and the 36grit?

[Rob Hall]

So you used wax off first and the 36grit?

The "sample" area you see in the photos are a small pantry area. I tried one Stone Flag in one corner with your AMS&CR and another Stone Flag with Lithofin Wax Off.

I then HAD TOO remove the Sealer from EVERY flag with a Diamond Brush as the chemical option did not work. The Lithofin did have a small reaction but the Aqua Mix did nothing after 3 hours dwell time.

So, in this small amount of Research and Development...my conclusion was:
The Chemicals were a waste of time and money.
The brush required water and a vac up and removed the whole amount of sealer.

I am interested to know if you, or anyone else, would have done anything any different?
Maybe more dwell time? Overnight perhaps?
Kitchen out of action?
Fumes?
If there is something I am missing Tony, point it out, I am always willing to learn....never to old to learn.

[Floor_Tony]

It maybe me but it look like the one with brush has left "dimples" in the stone you will have to correct me if I am wrong.

As for your chemical question of method we have never left a kitchen out of action or left fumes behind and I personally have only once had to leave it overnight. I can't answer your question I wasn't there and you seem obsessed by your refund challenge that's not down to me. Again I maybe wrong but if I recall correctly I think Kevin offered to come with you.

[Rob Hall]

These photos show more of the main floor area. Before and after using the 36 grit diamond.

[Rob Hall]

It maybe me but it look like the one with brush has left "dimples" in the stone you will have to correct me if I am wrong.

As for your chemical question of method we have never left a kitchen out of action or left fumes behind and I personally have only once had to leave it overnight. I can't answer your question I wasn't there and you seem obsessed by your refund challenge that's not down to me. Again I maybe wrong but if I recall correctly I think Kevin offered to come with you.

Dimples?
No. It is a Yorkstone...a very old Yorkstone with circa 200 years of wear and tear, so there are many 'imperfections'.

Obsessed? No, it was a fair challenge to you, but if you feel that it is out of your reach, I will accept the challenge as a result that, maybe there is something in using the brushes?

Even if Kevin had come on the Job...
A. I could not afford the cost of his attendence. I remember he quoted me around £700 to come to Leeds once to remove a 8" scratch from a Granite work top...god only knows what overnight dwell time costs?

B. What difference would it make if he came on the job?

I have another Yorkshire Stone floor to do tomorrow.
I will send you some more photos.
I will do half a flag with the Aqua Mix and the other half with my diamond brush. Tell me, how much dwell time would you like me to allow?
It is no where near as bad as the previous photos that you have just seen, but I would like to give the challenge a fair trial.

[Kev Martin]

Rob

 3 straight questions that require 3 straight answers

What size is your Diamond brush?
What grit is it?
What RPM are you using?

Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd

[Rob Hall]

Rob

 3 straight questions that require 3 straight answers

What size is your Diamond brush?
What grit is it?
What RPM are you using?

Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd

Is this relevant to my dwell time tomorrow?

[Kev Martin]

Very relevant!

So a reply would be nice with your experience

Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd

[Rob Hall]

Very relevant!

So a reply would be nice with your experience

Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd

1. The brush size I will be using on tomorrows job is 4"
2. 36 Grit Diamond.
3. My RPM on the machine (variable speed Flex L1503VR) varies between 1100 and 3700. I always use the brush on the lowest setting.

OK, so what is the relevance
and..
What dwell time do you require on your Aqua Mix Sealing & Coating Remover

[Kev Martin]

Rob

Have patience we will get to the Chemical shortly.

Here are the next questions. All are short answers.

1. What result do you get using the same grit brush at 150rpm with a 42kg machine?
2. How long will it take you to do a 100M2 of Riven Slate covered in Slateseal using your 4" brush and water? No Chemical

Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd

[Rob Hall]

Rob

Have patience we will get to the Chemical shortly.

Here are the next questions. All are short answers.

1. What result do get using the same brush at 150rpm with a 42kg machine?
2. How long will it take you to do a 100M2 of Riven Slate covered in Slateseal using your 4" brush and water? No Chemical

Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd

1.I have used a 15" brush on my 45kg machine many, many times. The machine will take 80% of the 'offending sealer" then' its out with the 4" to get down and dirty with the remaining 20%

2. Wow... ermm dont know is the answer, I suppose the honest answer would be...
When my 45kg breaks down and is not capable of helping me out with the first 80sqm, I will let you know...at a guess for the strange reason of your question....2 days???

....and the relevance is...?

How long would it take Aqua Mix Sealer & Coating Remover?
With my Research on the product.....never! So, my 2 days looks quiet good in that respect eh?

[Kev Martin]

So your answer to Question 1 IS 150 rpm is not the same as 1100rpm is that a fair assumption?
Your reply to Question 2 is your not sure?

OK!

I am confused surely with all the slate floors you have stripped they must have been say 20M2 or similar. So how long did that take you with your 4" brush?

Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd

[Kev Martin]

Rob

I have an early start in the morning and it's late. Do you want to think about overnight?

Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd

[Rob Hall]

So your answer to Question 1 IS 150 rpm is not the same as 1100rpm is that a fair assumption?
Your reply to Question 2 is your not sure?

OK!

I am confused surely with all the slate floors you have stripped they must have been say 20M2 or similar. So how long did that take you with your 4" brush?

Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd

I only got an 'o' level in maths, however, 150rpm is lower yes..
AND THE RELEVANCE IS???

Have I done a 20sqm floor using a 4" brush? YES! In a day...
AND THE RELEVANCE IS?


Let me give you a simple maths test

How many hours would it take if you poured 5ltrs of Aqua Mix Sealer and coating remover over 20sqm to remove a nasty 5 years worth of Slate Seal?  

How much would it cost really as you would need to repeat several times?

How angry, on a scale of 1-10 would the customer be when he realises that he has wasted his/her money?
 
How many brushes wold you like to order from me in the morning?

[Rob Hall]

Rob

I have an early start in the morning and it's late. Do you want to think about overnight?

Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd

No, reply above.
I also have an early start.
You can always email your brush order to me tomorrow!!

[Rob Hall]

...and it gives you time to think about any relevance too
nite x

[Rob Hall]

Oh bugger..

I didnt get the dwell time...

or the relevance... 

I will let you \know how it goes tomorrow.

Nite y'all

[Kev Martin]

Rob

You have answered yourself. 20M2 took you all day. So a 100M2 will take you 5 days.

The fact is I have been testing Diamond, SIC, Tynex, Winnex and Ceramic brushes for the last 3 1/2 years. I have conducted the tests on dozens of different floors with dozens of different grits of all the aforementioned different brushes on six different speed and weight machines.  I know what works and what doesn't.  Incidentally Ceramic NOT DIAMOND brushes work best on riven slate with a 40kg 400 rpm machine they absolutely out performed diamond brushes by a Country mile rated against 24, 36, 50, 100 and 220 grit.

I have 15 different grit Diamond brushes you can try whilst you are waiting for your stock. You are welcome to come and see them if you wish.  Finally all testing proved the time process was reduced by over 40% when a stripper was applied to the floor first.

Finally return your unopened Aqua Mix Sealing & Coating Remover for a full refund.  But they are only 3.785litre bottles not 5 litres.

Night Night

Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd

[Rob Hall]

Rob

You have answered yourself. 20M2 took you all day. So a 100M2 will take you 5 days.

The fact is I have been testing Diamond, SIC, Tynex, Winnex and Ceramic brushes for the last 3 1/2 years. I have conducted the tests on dozens of different floors with dozens of different grits of all the aforementioned different brushes on six different speed and weight machines.  I know what works and what doesn't.  Incidentally Ceramic NOT DIAMOND brushes work best on riven slate with a 40kg 400 rpm machine they absolutely out performed diamond brushes by a Country mile rated against 24, 36, 50, 100 and 220 grit.

I have 15 different grit Diamond brushes you can try whilst you are waiting for your stock. You are welcome to come and see them if you wish.  Finally all testing proved the time process was reduced by over 40% when a stripper was applied to the floor first.

Finally return your unopened Aqua Mix Sealing & Coating Remover for a full refund.  But they are only 3.785litre bottles not 5 litres.

Night Night

Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd

Clever that one Kevin...very clever!
First you invent a scenario which I would probably never take on...but I fell into your sordid trap.

100sqm at 20sqm a day with a 4" brush...Ha Ha Ha Ha, even I wouldn,t be stupid enough.
However....100sqm using Aqua Mix Sealing and Coating Remover which doesn,t work would take me months!! Perhaps the 4" brush option IS a possibility after all.

I am sorry Kevin, ceramic will NEVER replace Diamond. Earlier this month I was in Verona at the stone show talking to several manufacturers about ceramic over diamond...they thought I was being very stupid. So, no, not even the brush manufacturers think like you. (Then again, you will probably advise them on the brush forum will you??)

Evidence of stupidity;

I have told you that I tried Aqua Mix Sealing and Coating Remover on a small area of Yorkshire stone with NO EFFECT, then you say "Send back the un-opened bottle for a refund"

Is it me??

I was going to do a floor this morning, but, I am off to bang my head against a wall. It is pointless having a serious discussion with you Kevin.

Oh, nearly forgot again, regarding my test.... and the dwell time you would like me to try??
Bearing in mind, I have got a day to do it!!

In conclusion...and I saved the best till last....

Use a stripper.....use the brush.....and Kevin says "It will reduce the time by 40%" (so we agree on something then???)

I rest my case.

No more questions your honour.

I would like to add a small note to this last comment.
I see this as good healthy banter. The debate didn't get nasty, just at some points things can get missed due to the lack of spoken words, typing is ok, but I feel face to face with feelings works better. Better still if you can use the product to verify what you are trying to prove.

Watch for the phots of todays job later tonight.

Who needs Coronation Street!!