[Paul Simpson]

Evening all,

A job I did earlier this week just rung to say some marks have come up on the carpet that weren't there before cleaning. From her description I told her it could be browning, but having remembered the job after speaking to her there were a lot of urine stains (dog) and just wondering if cleaning has disturbed some that weren't visible before?
She sent me a couple of pics (attached)
What would you say?

Thanks Paul

[CleanerCarpets]

Paul - see my reply on the other channel!!

[Mike Halliday]

Why do you think its browning ? ( I guess you mean cellulosic browning )

Browning occurs when you overwet some natural fibres either on the face or in the backing which releases a brown 'dye' ( I use brackets as I don't think it's an actual dye)

To give a considered answer we would need to know  the carpet fibre and what cleaning agent was used.

I would guess that you have not caused the problem of the brown areas more that you have made them more apparent. It was a mistake to mention 'browning' to the client as you are admitting liability for the marks as it could not be your fault.

[Paul Moss]

Picture is not very good as all I can see is pink looking patches and darker patches that look like pile reversal/ pooling.

[Mike Halliday]

Just to add....

The only time I've seen real browning was 12yrs ago on a job where a 2lt pump up was cracked and emptied its content ( a high ph prespray) in a puddle on a wool carpet with a jute  backing. Got a call back 2 days later about a brown circle.

I crapped my self but I was in the NCCA so called Paul Pearce who talked me through the remedy

[Paul Moss]

Just to add....

The only time I've seen real browning was 12yrs ago on a job where a 2lt pump up was cracked and emptied its content ( a high ph prespray) in a puddle on a wool carpet with a jute  backing. Got a call back 2 days later about a brown circle.

I crapped my self but I was in the NCCA so called Paul Pearce who talked me through the remedy

And Mike still has the same Stanley knife to this day 

[Paul Simpson]

Yes I meant Cellulosic browning Mike.
It was a wool mix and I was using a SPM pre-spray and rinsing with plain water but I think it was a detergent spotter I was using that may possibly have caused it.
I actually told her it 'could' be browning, I also told her it could be one or two other possibilities.

I have had a browning case before, back when I was using UP renovate and used a heavy spray of it on a particularly dirty patch and despite rinsing with an acidic rinse obviously didn't rinse enough in that particular area and of course panic set in when I got the call but was aware of 'browning' and went back with some browning prescription and watched it disappeared. 

[John Kelly]

There are two types of browning. One caused by overwetting causing the dye to migrate from the back of the carpet and the more common one caused by using a highly alkaline detergent on Wool fibres. This should really be called burning.
How to avoid, don't over wet and use a product designed to clean Wool.

[Tadgh O Shea]

Yes another case of the detrimental damage caused by using high alkaline based chemical cleaners, it dose not matter if they are used on hard floors,carpets,upholstery,pvc,vehicle surfaces,etc, they should just be avoided, there are plenty of safe alternatives, just ask your janitorial supplier.

[Jamie Pearson]

Browning occurs when you overwet some natural fibres either on the face or in the backing which releases a brown 'dye' ( I use brackets as I don't think it's an actual dye)

It's called lignin. A naturally occurring wood polymer present in all natural plant fibres.

The older the fibre the darker it is and the easier the release.

[Deep Cleaning Solutions]

On another note the carpets don't look to have had very good results after you cleaning them!

Yes I don't know had bad they were before and I know wool can be a mare,
but the results are very patchy!

Also high alkaline chems can be used perfectly safely on wool carpets in certain situations if you know what you are doing. It's horse's for course's sometimes you need that extra ph to get the best results.

Regarding the marks, I tend to see these mainly in front of sofa's chairs on wool carpets where previous carpet cleaners have maybe understandably put too much down in the more soiled areas, it's hard sometimes to know when to stop, but that's what differentiates a good carpet cleaner from an average one.

I have seen an almost identical scenario to this one where a customer had used a vax machine.
We solved it by using plenty of Prochem browning prescription ,F&F rinse and very little water followed by air movers. Good luck with this one.

[Paul Simpson]

Thanks for the replies.
It was in a bad state to begin with and will never look great again as there were a lot of burn marks (open fire spits) and yellowing from some of the urine stains that I couldn't get out but she was happy when finished as all the dirt/soling came out which is what she was most worried about.
I think the patchy bits are what she means but it's been 3 days since I cleaned it and probably will be more than a week before I can go and see it. She can't do x,y or z and I can't do one day.
So if it is browning (either one) is it time sensitive? i.e. the quicker it's treated the better?

[John Kelly]

It won't get any worse once its dry so time isn't an issue. Allways best to use an acid rinse if using Alkaline chemicals on Wool. Plain water isn't sufficient to neutralise the alkaline. Truckmounters might get away with it due to the high flow rate of their pumps.

[Paul Simpson]

Thanks John.

[Paul Simpson]

Well it was browning!

Customer found an hour when I could pop around this afternoon and its now sorted so thanks all for the input.
Attached is a before/after shot of an area taken today for future reference if anyone else comes across the same problem.

Solution = An acidic spray with a rotary and pad and dried quickly (blower)

Paul

[cleantech]

That is pile reversal

[Tadgh O Shea]

Just imagine if you did not clean it with a high alkaline based detergent in the first place you would not have the bother to use an acidic rinse, the mind boggles when there are so many safer alternatives available on the market today.

[davep]

You dont sell them by chance do you 

[John Kelly]

He does Dave, but he is right.

[Simon Gerrard]

We used Powerburst on practically everything for years without the slightest hint of a problem. This notion that high alkaline cleaners cause problems and only so called Eco / Natural type cleaners will avoid that is in my view totally unrealistic. If you acid rinse with the correct dilution you won't have a problem.
You've handled that situation very well, Paul. Your only concern should be how it became to patchy in the first place.

Simon