[John Kelly]

Simon you said it, acid rinse. He had only used plain water so that wasn't enough to neutralise the alkalinity. Also using a truckmount gives you far greater flushing power to get any pre-sprays out of the carpet.
The eco/natural type products you are talking about aren't particularly wool safe and most of them aren't particularly eco friendly.
There are products designed for wool which do an excellent job and prevent the problems highlighted in this post. Some of the best being Chemspecs One Clean and One Clean Traffic Lane.

[Paul Moss]

We used Powerburst on practically everything for years without the slightest hint of a problem. This notion that high alkaline cleaners cause problems and only so called Eco / Natural type cleaners will avoid that is in my view totally unrealistic. If you acid rinse with the correct dilution you won't have a problem.
You've handled that situation very well, Paul. Your only concern should be how it became to patchy in the first place.

Simon

Totally agree with Simon I clean hundreds upon hundreds of wool carpets each year and use power burst as a minimum base cleaner. Never had a problem and never will.
Some people think that's it's just about the ph, unfortunately they have a very small amount of chemical knowledge. Ph only plays a small part of it, ph is an indicator only of the chemicals base or acidicy, the more important part is what the actual chemical composition is and its concentration.
Most fabrics, carpets and rugs have the dyes set into them by very high or very low ph chemicals for stabilisation .
BUT that does not mean you can go throwing any chemical about as you please.....
You need some knowledge about the chemicals you use and how they will effect the dyes ( not so much the wool as wool is much more resilient than people think) and backing of the fabric/ carpet you are working on.

[Deep Cleaning Solutions]

Their is a difference between using high ph alkaline chems on a lightly soiled wool carpet and using it on a heavy soiled wool minger. Their is a time and a place for them were no wool friendly chem will do the job.

The problems here were not the chems, but how the chems and the machinery were used.
You can clean any wool carpet with alkaline chems and leave the carpet ph neutral and undamaged even without an acid rinse, although I would not recommend a newbie try this and a acid rinse is always the best way to go with wool carpets if you are using any detergent based products especially if they are hessian backed.

[Tadgh O Shea]

Hi Guys, where will i start with this one, okay back to 1982 when i joined the cleaning industry. came in not having a clue about cleaning and here i am over 30 years later still in the industry so i must of learned a few things. one thing i have found is that the cleaning industry is a very dirty industry pardon the pun, i blame the large companies for this, the ones that produce the caustic,corrosive,and toxic harsh chemicals that are pushed to us when we want to find our way in this industry, I have long come to understand not to trust many of these companies as their only interest is profit, most of these large chemical mfgs work on the 3Ps principle which is Profit first,Products second,and people last. for many years i took on faith what they were telling me about their wonderful safe and effective cleaning chemicals, yes they were indeed effective, effective in causing detrimental damage to my clients surfaces, as they were all high alkaline based cleaning chemicals but those companies or their reps never warned me about the detrimental damage they would cause to surfaces from continuous use.
Now guys trust me  i am not just talking about harsh carpet cleaning chemicals here its right across the board, weather i was using chemicals to clean hard floors,vehicles,carpets,upholstery,leather,glass and mirrors,,upvc window frames, etc,etc, the majority of them were caustic,corrosive,and toxic, and yes i will put my hand up i damaged many of my clients surfaces from these harsh chemicals. its important to understand the difference between a customer and a client here because a customer is someone you might do business with just once, and a client is someone you do business with on a regular basis, this is when i discovered and it took me many years to cop it that i was seeing first hand the damage i was causing to my clients surfaces from the continuous use of these harsh high alkaline based cleaning chemicals, on a one off job for a customer you wont notice this detrimental damage. so now some of you might understand why i have a total aversion to using high alkaline based chemical cleaners, from my experience over the years products that i would consider gras rated (generally regarded as safe) are products with a ph value of between 5 to 10. to err on the side of caution i would prefer not to use products that are under 5 ph acidic, or over 10 ph alkaline, i am by no means a chemist but from years of experience i can tell if a product is safe or not by smelling,feeling or diluting it and spraying some of it on a sensitive surface to test how caustic or corrosive it is. now that we also promote cleaning products to our clients, when i find a safe cleaning solution i will test it myself first by diluting it and spraying it up into the air letting it fall onto my eyes,face,and skin, if i find it irritating i will not take it on board and promote it to our clients, now guys dont get me wrong there are times when we have to use harsh chemicals for particular jobs but again these would be one offs. the point i am trying to get across here is with todays latest advancements in cleaning science there are many safer alternatives than having to use high alkaline based cleaning chemicals on whatever surface you are working on, this is the industry i choose to make my living from and am happy to just share some of my experiences, i am not looking for business and i never come on this forum boasting about how much business we are doing online and we can hardly keep up with the demand for our products unlike some posters on this forum, to me that is just a load of old crap, there are many reputable janitorial suppliers in the UK who will put you on the right track when it comes to using safe cleaners on your clients surfaces. If you want to make an informed decision on the products that your supplier recommends to you, just look at the ingredients list on the safety data sheet, take each ingredient and type it into google and you can see for yourself weather they are safe or not, and of course check the ph value, anyway that is enough about my rant on high alkaline based cleaning chemicals, hope this information can be of benefit to some of you guys.

[john martin]

 A lot of what you say might be valid but your conclusion on the chemistry involved is a bit simplistic  imo  ...   by the same reasoning a chef would never use onions because the vapor hurt his eyes while chopping  ...  or the vinegar stung the graze on his finger .
Most cleaning products are relatively safe if used correctly  ,  and if the eco marketed  chemicals were better at cleaning most who have tried them would have abandoned the tried and tested products they favor .

[Tadgh O Shea]

Hi John, the reason i have abandoned the tried and tested products many years ago is because from my experience over the years i have found them not to be safe, my point being that there are many safer and more effective cleaning technologies available on the market today, its a simple task of reading the ph value and the ingredients list which are stated clearly on the safety data sheet, check out the ingredients on google and it will tell you how safe they are, look John i found it very hard to take in when i finally realized that the majority of chemical manufacturers were making a complete fool out of me with their false advertising and lies this has been and will continue to go on for many more years, and for the benefits of newer guys coming into our industry, its worth pointing out some known facts to them that can help them from making some of the mistakes that us older members have made over the years.
Yes i have developed a total aversion to using high alkaline based chemical cleaners and this is from many years of hands on experience in using them, i am not out to change the world but am happy to share some my experiences picked up over the years in this industry and one thing i have learned is that
People dont care how much you know until they know how much you care.

[john martin]

Hi John, the reason i have abandoned the tried and tested products many years ago is because from my experience over the years i have found them not to be safe, my point being that there are many safer and more effective cleaning technologies available on the market today, its a simple task of reading the ph value and the ingredients list which are stated clearly on the safety data sheet, check out the ingredients on google and it will tell you how safe they are, look John i found it very hard to take in when i finally realized that the majority of chemical manufacturers were making a complete fool out of me with their false advertising and lies this has been and will continue to go on for many more years, and for the benefits of newer guys coming into our industry, its worth pointing out some known facts to them that can help them from making some of the mistakes that us older members have made over the years.
Yes i have developed a total aversion to using high alkaline based chemical cleaners and this is from many years of hands on experience in using them, i am not out to change the world but am happy to share some my experiences picked up over the years in this industry and one thing i have learned is that
People dont care how much you know until they know how much you care.

But what is your benchmark for ' not safe '     it seems a bit subjective .
If you look up the MSDS sheets and then google the individual items in isolation , you are bound to find some thing  which could be potentially harmfull in specific uses but that might not relate to its use in a cleaning product .
My analogy with the onion  ( might not be a great one )  but the point i was making was if you google the ingredients of an onion as you would a cleaning product you would find chemicals which make for strong eye irritants  ...  and thus conclude that its unsafe .
But we dont go around rubbing onions in our eyes  .... and we dont snort the cleaning products  ... we use them as directed .

Most of us have tried the Micelles products and others and just found them not always the best or quickest to use for a particular situation .

[Tadgh O Shea]

When working with micelles the trick is temperature,dwell time, and agitation, as the ingredients are not aggressive unlike high alkaline based chemicals which will remove soils very quickly from the surface but at a cost, the cost being from continuous use of these caustic and corrosive ingredients they will cause detrimental damage to surfaces, this is a known fact within our industry and as i have already mentioned it was very hard for me to accept this fact but now many years on i am so glad i did as i can go into any facility knowing that i am not going to damage any surface from continuous use of harsh cleaning chemicals, its also worth mentioning that micelles based cleaners are not the only safe cleaning technology thats available on the market again i have found google a great tool to help in sourcing which safe technologies are available on the market today, yes i was taken in for many years by the majority of chemical manufacturers and i mean taken in big time, but not anymore as i have long found out not to trust them, i will say it again guys i am not here trying to save the world or our industry, but if i can play a small part in pointing out some home truths for the benefits of newer guys coming into our industry, i will continue to do so as long as i am allowed to.

[john martin]

 Well thats great if you believe in it   .  I have been back cleaning the same items in the same houses for many years and i know the products have not caused  damage , if it did i would not get back . And many of us are are only using the high PH products selectively . 

[Tadgh O Shea]

Hi John, we both have different opinions on the subject of high alkaline based chemicals, i respect yours and i am sure you will respect mine, i am first to admit that it is up to every individual to choose which ever cleaning product they want to use, i again wanted to share some of my experiences from many years in this industry, and i am sure people will make informed decisions on what products they use on their clients surfaces based on posts like this, after all is that not what forums are meant to be members sharing information for the benefits of others.

[Radek Jablonski]

Damage is not always visible in the first instance. Using high alkaline product on wool cause damage to the fabric, reducing the softeness of the carpet after the cleaning etc. So, even acidic rinse will not help, will stop any future damage but not what is already done while cleaning.

[john martin]

Hi John, we both have different opinions on the subject of high alkaline based chemicals, i respect yours and i am sure you will respect mine, i am first to admit that it is up to every individual to choose which ever cleaning product they want to use, i again wanted to share some of my experiences from many years in this industry, and i am sure people will make informed decisions on what products they use on their clients surfaces based on posts like this, after all is that not what forums are meant to be members sharing information for the benefits of others.

Certainly , argue for what you believe in  .     But apart from PH ( which isn't necessarily extremely high in many products )  there are other ingredients in the established ' detergents ' which are beneficial for a good result  , solvents , surfactants , oxidizers   etc  ....     all the good stuff   

[Tadgh O Shea]

Hi John, maybe we should just agree to disagree, as i certainly do not want to start another argument on the use of solvents,surfactants, and oxidizers.

[Mike Halliday]

I tend to agree with John, to arbitrarily be against an element of cleaning is not reasonable, we could take the same stance against agitation and say we are against scrubbing carpet as it has the potential ( and we have personal experience) of it damaging the carpet or we are against high heat as it again can damage carpets.

Everything we use has the potential in unprofessional hands to cause damage, high ph chemicals have a place in our cleaning as does more neutral products it's up to us to use them appropriately.

[Simon Gerrard]

The counter argument to the supposed damage that high alkaline cleaning agents may do to carpet or fabric is to consider the damage the engrained soils do over time, causing excessive wear and  eroding the colours. High Ph products remove the soils faster and more thoroughly than milder ones allowing a more thorough clean without the need for aggressive mechanical agitation which is far more destructive than chemical action itself.
So I think it is a trade off between getting the dirt out of the piece as quickly and efficiently as possible versus the potential damage that might do, which btw is microscopic so hardly worth getting you knickers in a twist over.

Simon

[V_Purcell]

We used Powerburst on practically everything for years without the slightest hint of a problem. This notion that high alkaline cleaners cause problems and only so called Eco / Natural type cleaners will avoid that is in my view totally unrealistic. If you acid rinse with the correct dilution you won't have a problem.
You've handled that situation very well, Paul. Your only concern should be how it became to patchy in the first place.

Simon

Glad to see that other people have an insight to a great cleaning systems, we always use high ph enzyme powdered traffic lane cleaner, through out inline sprayer, then just used a conditioning rinse Ph 4 to rinse the carpet off, never a problem. Great for your pumps a fittings, jets do not get blocked up as much, stops limescale build up in heaters, pips and fittings. And pumps last longer as you are not running solvents through them.

[V_Purcell]

Hi John, we both have different opinions on the subject of high alkaline based chemicals, i respect yours and i am sure you will respect mine, i am first to admit that it is up to every individual to choose which ever cleaning product they want to use, i again wanted to share some of my experiences from many years in this industry, and i am sure people will make informed decisions on what products they use on their clients surfaces based on posts like this, after all is that not what forums are meant to be members sharing information for the benefits of others.

It basically comes down to education, and I do not mean with the 2 large carpet cleaning chemical companys, how ever Chemspec has the largest following in the USA and has superb training. But I do not think that any members here will know what, Soda Ash, Sodium triphosphate STTP , NTA does, when it is formulated with Sodium metasilicate nonahydrate, and anionic sufactant NP9 Nonylphenol Ethoxylate and d-Limonene. This is to much to learn.

So the average carpet cleaner, has to take advice from chemical suppliers, and make an informed decision on what he wants to use.

[Mark Lane-Matthews]

This might be a simple case of wick back from residue lying at the bottom of the pile

[Tadgh O Shea]

Its not just carpets and upholstery we are talking about here, but the bottom line is high alkaline based cleaning chemicals will cause detrimental damage to surfaces from continuous use, its a well known fact within the cleaning industry and many people will prefer not to accept this fact, the point being with todays latest advances in cleaning science there are many safer alternatives available from many suppliers, again its up to each person to decide on which cleaning chemical they choose, but there is no harm in letting newer guys coming into our industry know that there are safer products available other than the high alkaline based ones which are often promoted as safe.

[V_Purcell]

I must admit, I do know my chemistry, I used to manufacture our own range of carpet cleaning products, 62  products in total. Although I do not have any professional qualifications. People want to save the earth, but no one wants to pay it. And its quite easy to produce green eco friendly products, you just have to find eco replacement chemicals, although formulation is sometimes a little more difficult, as some chemical will not go into suspension as easy as others, but its about research.