[Tom White]

this forum really has gone down hill,

This was first said about three months after the forum began in 2003 I think it was, and has been repeated at regular intervals ever since.

The thing is, this forum doesn't exist all by itself; it takes a conceptual mind to create it.  When you like what people say, you create it to be great, and when you don't like what people say you create it to be going downhill.

But that's a very self centred opinion.

[Geoff]

Well, it's also a bit like saying the country isn't what it used to be, etc. etc.

This forum certainly isn't like what Cleaning Pros used to be, but then again, how could it be?  In fact, maybe this forum is EXACTLY how Cleaning Pros used to be, but both have changed so much, that really, no-one can tell the difference!

[stuart mc]

http://www.rbfrs.co.uk/job_ff_wt_pay.html

I have no idea where you serve Panorama but her is some pay scales from a site, and if you cant buy bread with that then feck knows, bread must be dear where you live

not going to knock you for doing a second job but don't bleat is a necessity to feed the family please, it just makes normal paid folk outraged

[Geoff]

Agree with that.

[wpclean]

Sometimes you can get sidetracked into a point of view by reading  certain media content.     I think if we are honest we can be be a bit jealous of the kind of pay structure of firemen, but we should think of the risks involved.

If we make a mistake ( miss a window ) no big deal, if a fireman makes a mistake he could lose his own life, or that of another.

The title of the thread is incendiary, and the poster should stop to think about the hurt his comments could cause to those that risk their lives to make a wage !

[Panorama]

 How can you say that Stuart m  , you don't know my circumstances, the thread started has a dig at firemen been window cleaners, it then changed into a joke thread saying lighten up, and know it's turned into a dig again, does it really get under your skin that I have a second job ?, the industrial dispute is about pension, currently I pay 13% into my pension which is £320 per month, a couple of years ago I was paying 11% which was roughly £270 per month ,the government promised not to review it at that time for at least 10 years, they now want us to pay 15%, which will be around the £370 mark per month. Now the crux of the argument is fitness . At 55 men and womens fitness deteriorates rapidly. The government compiled a report to look into extending the retirement age to 60, it was compiled by their own expert, Dr tony Williams, he reported back and concluded that if the fitness level the government wanted to bring in were to be implemented, then 90% of female firefighters would be sacked before they reached 57, and 90% of males would be sacked before reaching 60 because they can't reach the fitness standard the government want to bring in, this will result in the pension been frozen until the age of 67. The government didnt like to hear this and have totally ignored there own review . Now some of you have mentioned your own pensions, for every £1 i put in , I get back £1, but to achieve that , I have to pay 13% of my wages into the scheme, I think the most you can put into a private pension is around the 5% mark, if that was the case in the fire service I would probably get about 30 pence for every pound I put in , this puts to bed  government spin on gold plated pensions , the only ones who have gold played pensions are mps, who I hasten to add , have just took a pension holiday.  If I came across pedantic earlier on then I apologise, but please visit the fbu website and get the true facts and don't be lead by government and sky news spin

[Panorama]

Totally agree samson

[barry mallett]

Why do firemen need to be fit , sliding down poles and washing cars in front of the station isn't hard . Loads of pensioners do it every Sunday .

[robert mitchell]

Well said samson , its amazing how ungrateful some people are .

They are normally a lot more grateful when you have untangled them from their wrecked car or saved them from a fire , or even just saved their precious family photos etc .

[Panorama]

At the end of the day, we save people, but the pension is been used to save banks

[C o z y]

Geoff Lord is a funny guy who posts on the chat section of this forum. Always good for a wind up  It certainly got enough firemen wound up on this thread. 

I can't see the problem myself. I was in the army and covered the firt strike back in the 70's in the middle of a northern Ireland tour. So it was rescuing moggies in trees and putting out fires etc every day. On one day in particular had 5 bombs go off in Belfast city centre. I did that cover for a couple of weeks I think, and the adrenalin rushes were fantastic, except for when rescuing moggies of course.

I understand down time, and the urge to earn in that down time. Good luck to the guys in the service. I also understand how they feel about the government trying to steel their pensions.
The aggro on here against firemen baffles me. There's enough work for everyone, so if anyone feels threatened by someone else taking customers off them, those people need to decide if they're in the right job. If you find it hard to get customers, and hard to keep them or replace customers, you're probably in the wrong game.

Half the people in this game wouldn't even get a start if it wasn't for WFP. It's a great tool, but it's opened the job up to anyone with 2 left hands and a fear of working higher than 6 feet off the ground. Firemen, in general, don't have 2 left hands, or a fear of heights. This job is easier for some than others.

Stop having a pop at the firemen, and get better at what you do if you want to be in the game for the long run. Simple really.

[Tom White]

I think if we are honest we can be be a bit jealous of the kind of pay structure of firemen, but we should think of the risks involved.

The firemen tried to use this argument when they did the firestrikes in 2002, but under analysis, it didn't stand up to scrutiny.  Take a look at the death and injury rates for yourself, then compare it with the army.

At the time of the 2002 strikes, the unions were asking for their buckshee firemen to be on the same pay as a Warrant Officer (like a Sergeant Major) in the army.

And if you compare what an army private gets paid to what the firemen were asking, it was just absolutely ridiculous.

Being a fireman is not that dangerous when you compare it with some other occupations, like soldiers.  And like being a soldier, risk comes with the territory.

[gary999]

Sometimes you can get sidetracked into a point of view by reading  certain media content.     I think if we are honest we can be be a bit jealous of the kind of pay structure of firemen, but we should think of the risks involved.

If we make a mistake ( miss a window ) no big deal, if a fireman makes a mistake he could lose his own life, or that of another.

The title of the thread is incendiary, and the poster should stop to think about the hurt his comments could cause to those that risk their lives to make a wage !

what a load of rubbish! the original post was a wind up if a grown up
cant either ignore  it or give some wise ass a bit of abuse back then it is really
pathetic.if  all fireman are that sensitive to critsism whether its valid or not
then they might aswell all give up ad go home

personally ive never wanted to be a fireman etc but if the someone
comes on and makes a serious statement which the poster did with with who
i had a discussion on a public forum i have every right to question whatthey are saying.

 i feel they do a worthwhile job but as a member of the public
i feel its the wrong time with things being like they are to strike
over pensions.

i seriously doubt that if the fire service were putting across
their mesage like it has been on this forum they would get any support at
all.its never crossed my mind to critisise before i read this post.

maybe it would be best for the fire fighters on this forum maybe to
ignore these posts and leave their representation  to the peoplewho have the
skills to do it...because this is doing you no favours

[gary999]

Well said samson , its amazing how ungrateful some people are .

They are normally a lot more grateful when you have untangled them from their wrecked car or saved them from a fire , or even just saved their precious family photos etc .

dont do this matey...i had a good discussion with you yesterday
and took some of things you said on board.

the above post is childish and giving a poor representation of yourself
maybe frustration is getting the better of you..if it is maybe its a time
to take a step back from this post...because you will definately lose
the argument and support if you keep aking statements like that

[Panorama]

Being a fireman is not that dangerous when you compare it with some other occupations, like soldiers



For a moderator on here, this is the most ridiculous statement I've ever read since i joined this forum, you don't say
I will make no further comment on this thread

[Tom White]

Being a fireman is not that dangerous when you compare it with some other occupations, like soldiers



For a moderator on here, this is the most ridiculous statement I've ever read since i joined this forum, you don't say
I will make no further comment on this thread

I think it's a few years since the last firemen died; two in 2010.  I can't find any others on the interweb.  Now compare that with soldiers; and remember, for every soldier killed there's about five missing limbs and another ten with serious life changing injuries. And about 5 to 10 percent of all soldiers that've went to places like Afghanistan, they'll suffer with mental health problems like post traumatic stress disorder.

Don't bother commenting; just go and huff like a small child. 

[Tom White]

I've found a statistic saying that 44 firefighters have died in the UK since 1978.  That's not a bad statistic as it goes.  I'd say fishermen have it more dangerous.



And no deaths at all between Feb 1996 and Oct 2002; that's not bad at all.

I bet more window cleaners have died during that period from falling off their ladders.

[robert mitchell]

Tosh , a fireman was killed earlier this year in manchester in a fire at a hairdressers , Stephen hunt.

I also agree with you about soldiers ,  my brother is having huge difficulties with what he experienced in iraq , he was involved in the longest and bloodiest battle in the iraq war as part of the queens dragoon guards working alongside the marines.

When he flew home he said to his wife that " he had to go and have a bath as i have my mates blood on me".

People see al  the missing limbs etc but they don't see the mental scars , and there are many more people with ptsd than there are with physical injuries.

Seeing dead , children and babies , mass graves , constant shelling day and night and living with the fact you have killed people - not easy.

Firefighter deaths have doubled in the last ten years .

I think you will also find that any fireman you ask about the 2002 strikes will agree that it was ridiculous , the union then was very different.

This strike is not asking for a pay rise , its asking for what firefighters have already been paying for for years , just for the record im on the 2006 pension so it doesnt affect me as much as people on the original pension.

Its not just about firefighter deaths either , there are many injuries that mean you cant work again , shorter life expectancy due to breathing contaminants etc.

There is also the horrible things you see that sometimes keep you awake at night , something i have experienced myself recently .

Gary 999 i dont see your problem with my statement and i stick by it , its the truth .

How does it lose me the argument ?

Explain please .

[G Griffin]

Why do you want to know how much I take home ?

because you claimed it was not enough to put bread on the table for your family, how big is your family?

Let them eat cake.

[Tom White]

Tosh , a fireman was killed earlier this year in manchester in a fire at a hairdressers , Stephen hunt.

That's sad, but it still does not mean it's a dangerous occupation.  I bet more than one taxi driver has been killed in the course of his/her duties this year.

I know for a fact there's been at least one window cleaner paralyse himself from the neck down (I'd prefer death myself).

My point is firefighting is not a dangerous job.  Yes, fire-fighters die in the course of their duties, and every death is a tragedy for those concerned, but when you compare them to our armed forces - which is what Panarama called 'ridiculous' - it is not as dangerous.

I brought the point up because Samson said it was a dangerous occupation and Panarmara agreed.  I don't think it is; the evidence shows it's not.  And a small number that's doubled, is still a small number.  10 or even 20 deaths in however many years is nothing compared to the deaths, the amputations, the life-changing injuries and the mental health problems that the armed forces suffer.