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Lee Burbidge

  • Posts: 2287
Legionnaires - are you worried?
« on: September 10, 2013, 07:38:20 pm »
Me neither, so why do some systems have UV lights to sterilize in going water?

♠Winp®oClean♠

  • Posts: 4085
Re: Legionnaires - are you worried?
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2013, 07:42:28 pm »
Me neither, so why do some systems have UV lights to sterilize in going water?

Who cares? but if you do want an answer, it's more than likely to justify a massively inflated retail price!!

Lee Burbidge

  • Posts: 2287
Re: Legionnaires - are you worried?
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2013, 07:53:53 pm »
Did you know the one pass of that UV light does not prevent Legionnaires you need a constant cycle like in a hot tub..... isn't that crazy????

LWC

  • Posts: 6824
Re: Legionnaires - are you worried?
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2013, 10:38:06 pm »
Not worried here dude  ;)

Ian101

  • Posts: 7887
Re: Legionnaires - are you worried?
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2013, 10:42:15 pm »
i joined to forget a woman but didnt understand the lingo so became a window cleaner instead  :)

bobplum

  • Posts: 5602
Re: Legionnaires - are you worried?
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2013, 10:48:20 pm »
i joined to forget a woman but didnt understand the lingo so became a window cleaner instead  :)

 ;D ;D ;D ;D

mark dew

  • Posts: 2901
Re: Legionnaires - are you worried?
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2013, 10:48:30 pm »
Not personally. I wouldn't drink water from my tank that's for sure.
But considering that most of the water we use in day to day life comes from storage somewhere, it isn't prevalent enough for me too consider more than a passing thought.

rosskesava

  • Posts: 17015
Re: Legionnaires - are you worried?
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2013, 01:07:49 am »
I'm not aware of any window cleaners catching Legionares in the summer months so why would I worry about it?

I'm sure if the risk was high enough, or even a risk at all, we would have heard about it by now from companies like Gardiner or Ionics, etc, as they would have tried to sell us something to stop or reduce the risk.

As a side note, I've been drinking RO water for over 5 years. Try making tea with RO water, no scum from the tea bag and no staining of the cup.

Tap water now tastes like ughhhhh.

Mark - it's not the storing of water that causes Legionares. It's the temperature, which I can't remember but it's about 50C, that causes it to rapidly become active and multiply.
Just chant..... Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare, Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare. It's beats chanting Tory Tory or Labour Labour.

Spruce

  • Posts: 8434
Re: Legionnaires - are you worried?
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2013, 06:17:42 am »
I'm not aware of any window cleaners catching Legionares in the summer months so why would I worry about it?

I'm sure if the risk was high enough, or even a risk at all, we would have heard about it by now from companies like Gardiner or Ionics, etc, as they would have tried to sell us something to stop or reduce the risk.

As a side note, I've been drinking RO water for over 5 years. Try making tea with RO water, no scum from the tea bag and no staining of the cup.

Tap water now tastes like ughhhhh.

Mark - it's not the storing of water that causes Legionares. It's the temperature, which I can't remember but it's about 50C, that causes it to rapidly become active and multiply.

This is a quote from a PDF document I have on my computer on Legionella.

"Legionella bacteria are common and can be found naturally in environmental water sources such as rivers, lakes and reservoirs, usually in low numbers. Legionella bacteria can survive under a wide variety of environmental conditions and have been found in water at temperatures between 6°C and 60°C. Water temperatures in the range 20°C to 45°C seem to favour growth. The organisms do not appear to multiply below 20°C and will not survive above 60°C. They may, however remain dormant in cool water and multiply only when water temperatures reach a suitable level. Temperatures may also influence virulence; legionella bacteria held at 37°C have greater virulence than the same legionella bacteria kept at a temperature below 25°C."

With us having such a warm summer, the tank water in the van has reached temperatures higher than 20°C and that's with a duvet over it. Infact the temperature of the cold tap water was 20°C when I took a reading about a month ago. There were times that the inside cab temperature reached 44°C at roof level with the van standing in the sun and the windows slightly open. (My van is dark blue in colour.) We live in the North East which isn't the hotest part of the country.

On the face of that, Legionella is a risk for us. Chlorine kills the bacteria, so our tap water is safe, but we remove the chlorine before purifying.  

However, in practise, with so many of us now using WFP, we don't seem to have experienced or caused any outbreak of the desease that we know about as rosskesava has noted. WFP is used in much hotter countries, ie Cyprus. Would we have heard about it had there been a legionella issue in these countries? I'm sure the ladder mamufacturers would be sighting cases if they did exist.

Vin flushes his tanks a couple of times in the summer with a bleach mix which kills most bacteria. I ask if we should be adding a bit of chlorine (as in the chloine used in swimming pools) to our water tanks every night as a treatment as this would be the only way ensure our tanks would be bacteria free. Chlorine disipates in the day with sunlight, but would it in a van with unglazed rear doors and a full metal bulkhead?

But chlorine gas, which is generated with the destruction of organic materials in swimming pools causes respiratory problems. So chlorine isn't the complete answer.

I didn't know the one pass of that UV light does not prevent Legionnaires. UV light is used in a lot of Scottish rural homes where household water is taken from local mountain streams. The system they use is a 'one pass' and then onto the water tap - but that's a closed circuit. Our tanks are open circuit and open to the environment, so this could be the reason why it needs to be continually circulated as in a hot tub or swimming pool.

I think the issue we have about drinking our tank water is that ours goes through the resin wash before it is stored in our IBC tank. At one time we bought FDA approved resin from RoMan as the purified water was fit for human consumption. The stuff we use now is commercial grade and hence not FDA approved.

Tea and coffee made with r/o water does taste much better than when made with hard water, the reason why Merlins are popular in American kitchens.
Success is 1% inspiration, 98% perspiration and 2% attention to detail!

The older I get, the better I was ;)

dannymack

  • Posts: 1624
Re: Legionnaires - are you worried?
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2013, 12:17:39 pm »
This seems to prop up every year !!  8)

dave0123

  • Posts: 3553
Re: Legionnaires - are you worried?
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2013, 12:23:48 pm »
Quote
As a side note, I've been drinking RO water for over 5 years. Try making tea with RO water, no scum from the tea bag and no staining of the cup.

I also use RO water for coffee/tea .. if we stop using it for less than a day you can see the hard water building up on the bottom of the kettle  >:( within days its covered in hard limestone... its discusting.. the main reason going to RO water is that we started to get that little bits of stone in the coffee its self.. a tap tds of 360 odd here. and am paying 64.00 a month for this garbage water  >:(
Dave.

Lee Burbidge

  • Posts: 2287
Re: Legionnaires - are you worried?
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2013, 09:20:25 pm »
I'm not aware of any window cleaners catching Legionares in the summer months so why would I worry about it?

I'm sure if the risk was high enough, or even a risk at all, we would have heard about it by now from companies like Gardiner or Ionics, etc, as they would have tried to sell us something to stop or reduce the risk.

As a side note, I've been drinking RO water for over 5 years. Try making tea with RO water, no scum from the tea bag and no staining of the cup.

Tap water now tastes like ughhhhh.

Mark - it's not the storing of water that causes Legionares. It's the temperature, which I can't remember but it's about 50C, that causes it to rapidly become active and multiply.

Hi its 30 degrees that Legionaries starts kicking around. When you do the Ionic training BWCA they warn you of the possibility of Legionaries........  and there may be something in the health & safety section of the booklet you get with a system. But your right, no reports for the 20 years wfp has been around..... so why does the Zero system have UV lights on it to kill bad bacteria such as Legionaries?

Lee Burbidge

  • Posts: 2287
Re: Legionnaires - are you worried?
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2013, 09:23:00 pm »
I'm not aware of any window cleaners catching Legionares in the summer months so why would I worry about it?

I'm sure if the risk was high enough, or even a risk at all, we would have heard about it by now from companies like Gardiner or Ionics, etc, as they would have tried to sell us something to stop or reduce the risk.

As a side note, I've been drinking RO water for over 5 years. Try making tea with RO water, no scum from the tea bag and no staining of the cup.

Tap water now tastes like ughhhhh.

Mark - it's not the storing of water that causes Legionares. It's the temperature, which I can't remember but it's about 50C, that causes it to rapidly become active and multiply.

This is a quote from a PDF document I have on my computer on Legionella.

"Legionella bacteria are common and can be found naturally in environmental water sources such as rivers, lakes and reservoirs, usually in low numbers. Legionella bacteria can survive under a wide variety of environmental conditions and have been found in water at temperatures between 6°C and 60°C. Water temperatures in the range 20°C to 45°C seem to favour growth. The organisms do not appear to multiply below 20°C and will not survive above 60°C. They may, however remain dormant in cool water and multiply only when water temperatures reach a suitable level. Temperatures may also influence virulence; legionella bacteria held at 37°C have greater virulence than the same legionella bacteria kept at a temperature below 25°C."

With us having such a warm summer, the tank water in the van has reached temperatures higher than 20°C and that's with a duvet over it. Infact the temperature of the cold tap water was 20°C when I took a reading about a month ago. There were times that the inside cab temperature reached 44°C at roof level with the van standing in the sun and the windows slightly open. (My van is dark blue in colour.) We live in the North East which isn't the hotest part of the country.

On the face of that, Legionella is a risk for us. Chlorine kills the bacteria, so our tap water is safe, but we remove the chlorine before purifying.  

However, in practise, with so many of us now using WFP, we don't seem to have experienced or caused any outbreak of the desease that we know about as rosskesava has noted. WFP is used in much hotter countries, ie Cyprus. Would we have heard about it had there been a legionella issue in these countries? I'm sure the ladder mamufacturers would be sighting cases if they did exist.

Vin flushes his tanks a couple of times in the summer with a bleach mix which kills most bacteria. I ask if we should be adding a bit of chlorine (as in the chloine used in swimming pools) to our water tanks every night as a treatment as this would be the only way ensure our tanks would be bacteria free. Chlorine disipates in the day with sunlight, but would it in a van with unglazed rear doors and a full metal bulkhead?

But chlorine gas, which is generated with the destruction of organic materials in swimming pools causes respiratory problems. So chlorine isn't the complete answer.

I didn't know the one pass of that UV light does not prevent Legionnaires. UV light is used in a lot of Scottish rural homes where household water is taken from local mountain streams. The system they use is a 'one pass' and then onto the water tap - but that's a closed circuit. Our tanks are open circuit and open to the environment, so this could be the reason why it needs to be continually circulated as in a hot tub or swimming pool.

I think the issue we have about drinking our tank water is that ours goes through the resin wash before it is stored in our IBC tank. At one time we bought FDA approved resin from RoMan as the purified water was fit for human consumption. The stuff we use now is commercial grade and hence not FDA approved.

Tea and coffee made with r/o water does taste much better than when made with hard water, the reason why Merlins are popular in American kitchens.

I love this post :)

Re: Legionnaires - are you worried?
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2013, 09:56:42 pm »
Someone put something up past year from some expert which cancelled out the threat due to something we as wfp users did that made it safe. Just cannot remember what it was. All I remember is not to be concerned and forgot what it was.

[GQC] Tim

  • Posts: 4536
Re: Legionnaires - are you worried?
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2013, 10:07:02 pm »
Someone put something up past year from some expert which cancelled out the threat due to something we as wfp users did that made it safe. Just cannot remember what it was. All I remember is not to be concerned and forgot what it was.

That put my mind at ease, thanks!  :D

It's only still bodies of warm water that are prone to legionnaires? Driving around or constant filling/draining should limit the risk? Was that it?

Anyway, I've got a UV filter after pre-filters, but that's only because my feed pipe is constantly outside. I've had a slug and green algae appear in my pre-filter bowl before. Just a small precaution to prevent bio scaling of the membrane, can't hurt, well it can, but just don't look in it.

Re: Legionnaires - are you worried?
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2013, 05:37:43 am »
I have been thinking of fitting  UV  lamps to my static tank for the same reason which one have you used?

[GQC] Tim

  • Posts: 4536
Re: Legionnaires - are you worried?
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2013, 06:12:24 pm »
I have been thinking of fitting  UV  lamps to my static tank for the same reason which one have you used?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/121082253611?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649

Static tank UV might need UV lamp for less flow rate.

Re: Legionnaires - are you worried?
« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2013, 07:08:10 pm »
There is no way I will paying  190 quid. Its something  I dont need.

Perfect Windows

  • Posts: 4178
Re: Legionnaires - are you worried?
« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2013, 07:30:04 pm »
Tablespoonful of pool chlorine in IBC twice a summer, pumped into van tank then into drain.  Cost almost zero.  Will kill off the algae on which Legionella breeds.

Vin

[GQC] Tim

  • Posts: 4536
Re: Legionnaires - are you worried?
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2013, 01:24:23 pm »
There is no way I will paying  190 quid. Its something  I dont need.

Why were you thinking of fitting them to your static then?