[C.C.S.]

HI guys i want to ''bleach'' my system as i think i have membrane fouling because of it and just wondering how do you do it exactly before i change all my filters.also the water in my area is around 400 ppm and i'm thinking to add an softner and not sure if it will make a difference.great .thanks

[Frankybadboy]

you need to speak to vin or spurce who would know

[Spruce]

I haven't done a 4040 r/o housing but Vin has.

The Ro/Man type r/o's where easier as you just fill a plastic bucket up with a very strong concentration of bleach and water and put the empty housings and screw caps in along with the 1/4" piping.

With the housing of the 4040 being bigger, I would remove the membrane, put the end cap back, leave the inlet hose and pure hoses connected, stand the housing upright and carefully pour a strong mixture of bleach mixed with water into the pure outlet hose with a small funnel until full. Open the waste gate valve for a moment to get the connectors treated, close up and leave for a few hours. Empty the contents of the r/o into a bucket .Then thoroughly rinse the housing with water. I would then suggest that you treat your carbon prefilter the same way using the bleach mixture from your bucket, and then put the inlet hose, pure and waste hoses in as well.

Our r/o has always gone through the di vessel before going into the tank. If yours is the same as mine, then I would also bleach out the di vessel (empty) and hoses. Whilst you are at it, I would also fill the IBC tank to the to top after putting bleach into that, leave it overnight, drain using your sub pump and thoroughly rinse out.

I would also use the opportunity to bleach the van tank as well. Fill that with a bottle of thick bleach, fill it up with tap water, drive around a bit to get it sloshing about and leave overnight. Drain and thoroughly rinse out. If you have a pressure washer, all the better.
Getting the last bit of rubbish from the bottom of the tank isn't easy so be prepared to clean your pump filter out every few days.

Treat this as a hospital deep clean. 

[Perfect Windows]

Take all the pre filters out and your knackered membrane, reconnect all hoses and raise the hose from the tap to the system so the hose partially empties.  Pour a quarter of a bottle of thin bleach into the hose.  Run some water through.  Disconnect and raise it again then pour in another quarter bottle.  Carry on until you've got through the bleach.  Keep a trickle running through (you're trying to mix it, not wash through the bleach) until you smell it at the outlet.  **Edit after posting - at this point turn off the water flow **

Leave for 24 hours.

Run water through until the smell of bleach is gone.

Replace all filters with new and put in the new membrane.

Do not, under any circumstances use thick bleach.  I did once and it produced so much foam that the bottom of the garden looked like it had snowed.

FWIW, I run the outlet of bleached water into my IBC and leave it for 12 hours then into the tank in the van for 12 hours.  I know I've been shot down for this in the past but one day in summer, someone on here will kill a customer with Legionella bred in warm tank water and there'll be hell to pay.  Bleach kills legionella.

I'm investigating using pool chlorine for the job but I've not tested it out for effectiveness yet.

Vin

[C.C.S.]

Hi.Thank you all for the quick response.This is a great forum with great members.I'll do that over the weekend as i think will take me a while

[richard jagger]

I would not use pool bleach as it contains copper as a stabilizer and will bond to all the PVC parts and might even tern the white PVS  green if left to long.It will defo stain. The copper in pool chlorine prevents it dispersing and slows the dissolving of chlorine down,like prolongs the bleaching effect but will get copper lock in a confined vessel.

[Perfect Windows]

I would not use pool bleach as it contains copper as a stabilizer and will bond to all the PVC parts and might even tern the white PVS  green if left to long.It will defo stain. The copper in pool chlorine prevents it dispersing and slows the dissolving of chlorine down,like prolongs the bleaching effect but will get copper lock in a confined vessel.

I've looked on the web for any site or article that mentions copper as an ingredient of pool chlorine.  I can't find one.  Where does your info come from?  I'm not doubting it, I just can't find anything to confirm it.

I also cannot find a page that says what "copper lock" is.

Vin

[Spruce]

Hi Vin.

As I have said before and say it again; I agree with you that the issue of Legionnaires’ disease is a serious one for us and not to be taken lightly.

We always dosed our swimming pool with chlorine every evening and the sun broke the chlorine down during the day. The rule is thumb was within 2 hours.

We filled and topped up our pool from a borehole that had a high metal content in the water. This restricted the strength of the chlorine as did an incorrect ph level. (This is maybe where Smithie gets the 'copper lock' from.) We had our water tested in the laboratory from time to time and had a solution made up that treated the pool for this high metal content. This worked by putting the metals into suspension in the water which was then filtered out by the filtration system.

But a swimming pool is an open body of water, sometimes being in the pool for a long period of time and subject to all sorts of organic contamination. During the summer the water got hotter than the 20 degrees that is the starting point of legionella growth. I don't recall hearing any problems with sickness related to swimming pool infection, (in Africa would that sort of information be made available?) although respiratory problems and red eyes were common due to a too higher or insufficient dose of chlorine.

We also used bleach in place of chlorine.

Whilst the legionella bacteria is a very serious issue, chlorine gas is also. I would say a small measure of bleach in a full tank of water at night in the summer wouldn't go a miss to kill of organic matter including Legionella, but will it dissipate from our tank before we start work in the morning? In fact, would a tiny amount of spray that still had bleach in it make a difference to our health? If it doesn't dissipate (my tank is covered up with a duvet) then what? Will it matter as we empty and refill our tank regularily?

My IBC holding tank is in a dark garage also with a cover over it. A fellow window cleaner had his ibc tank in the sunlight in his back garden and it was full of algae and as green as anything. He hasn't any health issues from using that water.

When I first started with wfp I bought some Cillit Bang with bleach to do a gutter and fascia clean. I was told by someone that bleach could leave the UPVC gutters yellow if it wasn't totally removed by rinsing with pure water before it dried. Is this true? I don't know as some say yes and some say no. Even cleaning website advice says that a bleach mix works on upvc.

So will putting steps in place to fix one potential issue cause other more likely major issues such as breathing problems and yellowing upvc window frames?

Although Chlorine is the magical cure to kill legionella, there is a move away from it's use in swimming pools in europe because of health issues to swimmers.

So I ask myself - is the legionella issue for us a very minor risk (no cases yet as far as we know but with the potential for major consequences) when compared to the bigger risk of chlorine related illnesses from using it? The other issue for concern is that we may take precautions to prevent it as our duty of care to ourselves and others, but legislation will hold us guilty if we are the cause of an outbreak no matter what precautions we have put in place.
 

[Perfect Windows]

Just to clarify, when I bleach the tank other than as part of a flush, I use tap water and either way it goes down the drain afterwards.  I wouldn't dream of cleaning with it.

I give it a bleach clean a couple of times a summer.  This kills both any legionella in there (and if you have tepid water you do have legionella in it, but not enough necessarily to be harmful) and it kills off the algae which can help legionella to grow.

As for who suffers from legionella, fine droplets of water like our backspray are the best way to carry it and they can infect someone 600ft away.  So it's not necessarily going to be the fine, adonis-like specimen of humanity holding the pole (I speak for myself there) who suffers but the doddery OAP on her way to do her shopping 200 yards away.

Anyway, it costs me 1000 litres of water, a bit of time over a weekend and 80p of bleach so I'm just happy I'm doing something to mitigate the risk.

Vin

[Dave Willis]

Would a UV filter do the same job?

[Perfect Windows]

A UV filter fitted between tank and nozzle would probably do it but I suspect might be difficult to plumb in.

Vin

[Dave Willis]

What about on the static system? Would it not eradicate all the bugs before the storage tank so that the water was sterile?

I wonder how dentists ro water is produced. Maybe before the ro unit.

I'm thinking if the water is sterile then there is nothing to grow in it.

[CleanClear]

[quote author=Perfect Windows link=topic=175665.msg1483617#msg1483617

I'm investigating using pool chlorine for the job but I've not tested it out for effectiveness yet.

VIn
[/quote]

I think the advice you've given is spot on. All i could add as regards "pool chlorine" is this...
 AFAIK "pool chlorine" is sodium hypochlorite, i use this for various cleaning jobs, as do many others here, probably in the jet washing section of the forum. I noticed on one of the labels i got it said "volotile". I'm open to correction here but i understand there is two types of sodium hypochlorite, "stable" and "volotile" or words to that effect. That seems to mirror the types of bleach you mention. The stable variety is designed to remain and afford a certain amount of protection, so its always present. Then theres the volotile one, which does evaporate. The volotile one is the type i use for cleaning, and does evaporate over time. Also its designed for shock treatment of pools so i can't see fumes being an issue as thats what its designed to do. That would equate to a stronger version of the thin bleach you mention from what i can see.

[Perfect Windows]

What about on the static system? Would it not eradicate all the bugs before the storage tank so that the water was sterile?

I wonder how dentists ro water is produced. Maybe before the ro unit.

I'm thinking if the water is sterile then there is nothing to grow in it.

The water that comes out of an RO is sterile.

Before I am jumped on by site know-alls, from the Economist: if water molecules were blown up to the size of tennis balls, salt molecules would be softballs (roughly 50% bigger in diameter), viruses would be trucks, and bacteria would be the size of power plants.

If salt molecules don't get through an RO, viruses and bacteria haven't a hope.

So, contamination of your RO happens on the input side. 

Contamination of the water in the IBC/van tank comes from anything at all getting in there.  The tiniest particle of dirt will start it off.  In my case, the IBC has cuts (from when I dropped the pump in) and, despite taping it, all kinds of crud gets in, even occasionally the odd worm.  The bleach is meant to deal with that contamination, the algae that feeds off it and any legionella present. 

I am in this case talking about the legionella sub-discussion.  The original poster's aim is to clean out his system so his new RO membrane doesn't get slime in it and stop working.

Vin

[CleanClear]

The water that comes out of an RO is sterile.

Before I am jumped on by site know-alls, from the Economist: if water molecules were blown up to the size of tennis balls, salt molecules would be softballs (roughly 50% bigger in diameter), viruses would be trucks, and bacteria would be the size of power plants.

If salt molecules don't get through an RO, viruses and bacteria haven't a hope.

So, contamination of your RO happens on the input side. 

Contamination of the water in the IBC/van tank comes from anything at all getting in there.  The tiniest particle of dirt will start it off.  In my case, the IBC has cuts (from when I dropped the pump in) and, despite taping it, all kinds of crud gets in, even occasionally the odd worm.  The bleach is meant to deal with that contamination, the algae that feeds off it and any legionella present. 

I am in this case talking about the legionella sub-discussion.  The original poster's aim is to clean out his system so his new RO membrane doesn't get slime in it and stop working.

Vin

Its b******s sterile. Like you said thin bleach and a good rinse should do it to kill algae and legionella. Albeit temporarily, if it was sterile you'd never have to do it again,no matter what the Economist magazine says.

[robert mitchell]

your right , it isnt completely sterile although in theory it should be .

slight imperfections with the membrane or seals mean that a fraction of the bacteria does end up in the product water.

[Spruce]

What about on the static system? Would it not eradicate all the bugs before the storage tank so that the water was sterile?

I wonder how dentists ro water is produced. Maybe before the ro unit.

I'm thinking if the water is sterile then there is nothing to grow in it.

The water that comes out of an RO is sterile.

Before I am jumped on by site know-alls, from the Economist: if water molecules were blown up to the size of tennis balls, salt molecules would be softballs (roughly 50% bigger in diameter), viruses would be trucks, and bacteria would be the size of power plants.

If salt molecules don't get through an RO, viruses and bacteria haven't a hope.

So, contamination of your RO happens on the input side. 

Contamination of the water in the IBC/van tank comes from anything at all getting in there.  The tiniest particle of dirt will start it off.  In my case, the IBC has cuts (from when I dropped the pump in) and, despite taping it, all kinds of crud gets in, even occasionally the odd worm.  The bleach is meant to deal with that contamination, the algae that feeds off it and any legionella present. 

I am in this case talking about the legionella sub-discussion.  The original poster's aim is to clean out his system so his new RO membrane doesn't get slime in it and stop working.

Vin

Every time we transfer water to our van, we introduce organisms into our IBC tank through the breather. They will be in the air that is drawn in to replace the water we've taken out.

Hence the reason why I commented earlier that this should be done daily as we did with our swimming pools. Dosing the pool daily was the only way to maintain it perfectly. Skip a day and we could see the difference in water quality, even if the pool wasn't used.

[Dave Willis]

Probably get away with a couple of Milton tabs chucked in the tank.

[CleanClear]

Probably get away with a couple of Milton tabs chucked in the tank.

Doesn't macmac do this already?

[Perfect Windows]

Every time we transfer water to our van, we introduce organisms into our IBC tank through the breather. They will be in the air that is drawn in to replace the water we've taken out.

Hence the reason why I commented earlier that this should be done daily as we did with our swimming pools. Dosing the pool daily was the only way to maintain it perfectly. Skip a day and we could see the difference in water quality, even if the pool wasn't used.

From what I've read, legionella is in pretty much all tepid water but takes time to breed to create a problem.  The data around the web is very vague but all suggests having a routine to get back to zero occasionally (which is almost how vague it is).  My IBC is black and in full sun so I deal with it occasionally, hopefully enough.

Vin