[david@zap-clean]

Just been to a large domestic job and the carpets were literally covered with hundreds of draft marks caused by the carpet kicker (when fitted):



Is this bad carpet fitting practice, or acceptable in some homes (i.e. draughty old houses with loose floorboards/cellars etc)?

I couldn't shift them either...

[dawsons]

This is kicker marks.

How was the fitter supposed to know that this was going to happen?

He could have advised the customer the floor boards needed sealing before fitting, but he probably didn't want to loose a morning's work.

Was he fitting new underlay down? If so, he should have spotted the potential problem. If they weren't too bad he could have taped the gaps and put paper felt down first, that would have helped.

If he was just fitting using the existing underlay, then he wouldn't have seen the potential problem.

Who is at fault?

The customer, the carpet shop, the fitter??

That's the sort of cleaning job we wouldn't even attempt unless they were willing to pay by our hour rate which is £60.....

[premier floorcare]

its caused by the teeth of the kicker being lowered too much and piercing the carpet backing

[Carpet Dawg]

Its quite a common problem, I see it often in old and new houses alike.

Its basically the spikes of the kicker been pressed down too hard. If the home suffers from draft marks around the edge of the carpet, then it'll also show where the wee holes from the kicker have been created.

Ultrapac or enzall spreayed down hot will deal with this but the marks will come back in a few months time.

[Hilton]

Yep, carpet fitters fault, no doubt about that,....is poor fitting and lazy technique and yes a fitter should be aware this could happen an inspection of the property should give them some clues and any decent fitter would identify these and report it accordingly...

Seen a ton of this over ths years, John Lewis used to uplift and replace every carpet on which this occured after one of their fits...I have seen one off small rooms to complete whole houses have the carpets replaced....

[maxcampbell]

Yep, carpet fitters fault, no doubt about that,....is poor fitting and lazy technique and yes a fitter should be aware this could happen an inspection of the property should give them some clues and any decent fitter would identify these and report it accordingly...

Seen a ton of this over ths years, John Lewis used to uplift and replace every carpet on which this occured after one of their fits...I have seen one off small rooms to complete whole houses have the carpets replaced....

Is it more than poor adjustment of the knee kicker spikes? Should they have lined the boards or something?

[Dave_Lee]

Not necessarily a carpet fitter fault. Those knee kicker spikes are meant to slightly penetrate the carpet secondary or woven backing. If the backing is not pierced by the spikes, when kicked, the knee kicker will skid across the pile and possibly damage it.
The fault is with the floor/skirting, if they were not faulty, those marks wouldn't occur, no matter how much the spikes went through the carpet backing.
Dave.

[Hilton]

So it's the floors fault, I would like to see that on the claims form 

[tony bish]

Agree with Dave ,a carpet stretcher has to penetrate the backing to stretch the carpet as it would pull great tufts of carpet pile out if the spikes were not set high enough .Many times I have forgotten to adjust them and have found myself skidding into the skirting and bruising my knee ,followed by a tirade of expletives   

[elliott cleaning]

"......the fault is with the floor..."

Sure the fitter has to penetrate the carpet with his kicker - but one assumes he/she is only interested in stretching the carpet and not the underlay as well.  Don't penetrate the underlay and you won't have those marks as pictured above

[Hilton]

It is the carpet fitters fault as already mentioned by using poor lazy technique and that was by setting the kicker too deep that's what the depth gauge is for.....to not only stretch the carpet but to  prevent causing secondary damage.

I'm not sure what its like now but time was not a factor either, if it took a year or two for the draught marks to appear the fitter was still responsible..

[tony bish]

Hilton what is a depth gauge ?

[Hilton]

Its the twirly dial on top that sets the depth of the pins to the required level.....some people only use
have one setting....deep and that's the problem..

[tony bish]

oh right !! I have been fitting for over 30 years and never heard it called that .

[david@zap-clean]

oh right !! I have been fitting for over 30 years and never heard it called that .

Ah, Tony, you didn't do a fitting job in a big house in Wilmslow about 10 yrs ago did you?
 

[Hilton]

oh right !! I have been fitting for over 30 years and never heard it called that .

You mean in thirty years no one has explained what that thing is ? no wonder there are so many damaged carpets about.

As a carpet fitter of thirty years would you agree that is a fitting fault, would you take responsibility for it if you had fitted that carpet ?

[tony bish]

Hmm David just split my sides .Most kicker pins even extended would merely grip the backing so as to get some purchase on it to stretch ,otherwise what would be the point in a stretcher ,a stretcher has to puncture the backing to a certain extent and not just the pile as it would cause irreparable damage if it did not .I have uplifted many carpets and of course you will see the indentations on backing where stretcher has been but certainly no holes in the backing .As for a depth gauge ,on most carpets ,(with the exception of a cheap felt back which this might well be as it looks like an old carpet called 4 star which came in hessian and foam back and later felt back with a polypropylene pile content ),with the pins at fully extended on a hessian backing you would find it hard to create gaping holes unless you kept stretching and stretching until you did damage it and if you did you would imo cause damage to the pile which would certainly be visible as soon as you had done job as their would be tufts ripped out .My point is that if you seriously damaged the backing with a stretcher you would almost certainly damage the top of the carpet also .So what is a fitter supposed to do then not stretch it ,from the photo I cannot see any damage to the pile so imo he has not done anything untoward just doing his job and if the house is riddled with gaps and holes which is causing these draught marks then they need to get them sorted ,you wouldnt call a chippie a cowboy if he left a gap from the skirting board to the floor if the floor was faulty and had gaps which caused draught marks . Not saying this is the case here just giving an opinion .Perhaps you should lift a bit of the carpet up David and you would get a better idea !!!  

[tony bish]

Well I was obviously not privy to the vast amount of knowledge you seem to have on carpets and fitting Hilton.

[david@zap-clean]

Hmm David just split my sides .Most kicker pins even extended would merely grip the backing so as to get some purchase on it to stretch ,otherwise what would be the point in a stretcher ,a stretcher has to puncture the backing to a certain extent and not just the pile as it would cause irreparable damage if it did not .I have uplifted many carpets and of course you will see the indentations on backing where stretcher has been but certainly no holes in the backing .As for a depth gauge ,on most carpets ,(with the exception of a cheap felt back which this might well be as it looks like an old carpet called 4 star which came in hessian and foam back and later felt back with a polypropylene pile content ),with the pins at fully extended on a hessian backing you would find it hard to create gaping holes unless you kept stretching and stretching until you did damage it and if you did you would imo cause damage to the pile which would certainly be visible as soon as you had done job as their would be tufts ripped out .My point is that if you seriously damaged the backing with a stretcher you would almost certainly damage the top of the carpet also .So what is a fitter supposed to do then not stretch it ,from the photo I cannot see any damage to the pile so imo he has not done anything untoward just doing his job and if the house is riddled with gaps and holes which is causing these draught marks then they need to get them sorted ,you wouldnt call a chippie a cowboy if he left a gap from the skirting board to the floor if the floor was faulty and had gaps which caused draught marks . Not saying this is the case here just giving an opinion .Perhaps you should lift a bit of the carpet up David and you would get a better idea !!!  

Great reply Tony. 

The root of the problem isn't the kicker - it's the draft/air moving up through the floorboards.
So why, when fitters know the kicker makes holes in the underlay, which causes this problem, don't they fit a draft excluder underneath the underlay - in the old days this was simple: 'put old newspaper down first'... But I guess the modern equivalent, The Kindle', would leave bumps in the carpet.
 

[tony bish]

There is a simple reply to this David and you are right a hard paper was placed under the underlay especially the old foam backs,but with the onset of better underlays and better flooring and now felt backs instead of foam backs it was just not needed anymore and it was also not beneficial as it made the underlay move more than it should ,and also cost ,most customers dont want to pay for felt or paper on top of dodgy floor boards ,and of course there is not a lot fitters can do about gaps under skirting boards. Re making holes in the underlay ,I think you misunderstood me ,a spike from a stretcher would not imo make a hole in underlay even fully extended I would be very surprised if that was the case as the spike would just penetrate the hessian backing ,unless like I said before it was a very worn carpet or felt back ,foam back .If you got a piece of underlay say tredaire which is rubber backed or even the old type felt ,even cloud nine which is made up of foam and punctured a hole in them ,they would go back to what they were before ie the hole would close up enough for nothing to come through .We live in a throw away society and the carpet industry is no different and they say most people change carpets every 7 years and this is the reason they are trying to make them more environmentally acceptable .Most customers couldnt give a damm about what is hidden under their carpet and if you advised them about gaps etc and it would cost an extra etc etc they would turn their nose up mate .