[formb]

I was careful not to ask that question first, it was only after he had mentioned a banksman..

Re-reading his reply he pretty much said a cordon would be of little use:

That leaves a large, open, inviting space for people to walk underneath the working area, regardless of any signs and bollards.

[SunShineCleaning]

I was careful not to ask that question first, it was only after he had mentioned a banksman..

Re-reading his reply he pretty much said a cordon would be of little use:

That leaves a large, open, inviting space for people to walk underneath the working area, regardless of any signs and bollards.

Strange, I read that the other way.

The bollards and sign STILL leave a large open space for people to walk underneath AND still be a at risk of falling objects.

As it happens I don't cordon off, this picture is how I do it. If someone is passing, work stops.

I'm only showing that H&S people think a certain way.

[andyM]

Ok what if you were to cordon off the pavement area in front of the shops so passers-by could not walk on the pavement.
This was with your best intentions to protect a member of the public from a possible injury of a water fed pole falling on them.
Joe public then chooses to walk into the road because the pavement has been blocked by the cordon and gets knocked down by a car.
What then?
And because you did not have official permission to cordon off the pavement and are restricting a public walkway you would have the book thrown at you!

[richard jagger]

Aha, my favour bull s/hit topic.

[George P]

Ok what if you were to cordon off the pavement area in front of the shops so passers-by could not walk on the pavement.
This was with your best intentions to protect a member of the public from a possible injury of a water fed pole falling on them.
Joe public then chooses to walk into the road because the pavement has been blocked by the cordon and gets knocked down by a car.
What then?
And because you did not have official permission to cordon off the pavement and are restricting a public walkway you would have the book thrown at you!

if you block the pavement you have to provide a safe walking passage around the area or tell people the footpath is closed and to use another, we was told in notts that because we didnt have room for an extra footpath we was to use a banksman who would have to help people across the rd, (not a busy area)

[dave0123]

load a b**cks just get on with it and get it cleaned for god sake! worse than girls some people with putting cones out, your cones are more of a hazard than anything else in that photo

[Llaaww]

I got some bargain socks in one of those shops. It was an outdoor type place that was shutting down last year.

£3 per pair, so I got 5 pairs. They will last years......... 

I was on holiday, it rained the entire time.

[George P]

I was on holiday, it rained the entire time.

sure it was raining and not someone cleaning the windows above 

[CleanClear]

The van is parked almost on the corner making it
1) dangerous for other road users
2) probably illegal
3) uneccesary and easily avoidable

[Dave Willis]

Yes, all those cones look like a trip hazard.

[Andrew Willis]

So a topic is raised and Andrew gives his opinion, he is vilified because of it.

I present a similar scenario and the advice from a H&S trainer is just about the same and guess what...?

this scenario is nothing like the one Andrew uses in his course and the outcome Andrew recommended for his scenario was a cherrypicker, if Andrew does not want to post his picture then that is his decision but it would of been good to get other window cleaners thoughts just as it was good to get thoughts on your scenario in which I would of used warning cones and had a banksman, the other risks manual handling slips and trips are already covered in my risk assessments.
  I honestly had not thought of the pidgeon poo problem but would of thought the fact that it would be wet down would remove the risk for the amount that is present, we could go further what about willes disease from handling trailing hoses where rats might of urinated it would probably be wise to wash hands after handling the hose on each job.
 

Trevor, Initially I had no problem, then thinking about it is there really any point.  

Over the weekend on the FWC SOS Facebook your clearly spelt out your support for our trade association. What I feel would put closure on this whole matter and would clearly help certain CIU members would be to call a meeting with Bryan Dolby and the FWC committee, request our trade association cover the cost of a QC, invite the working at height team from the HSE, representatives from Lloyds underwriting, and a Judge. I!ll attend along with a couple of contacts and we can address the photos and the case I use. I will be happy to provide all the information and other examples this way we can challange all attendng. Clearly the traffic this subject gets warrants our trade association clearing up the doubt, uncertaincy and arrive at a difinitive legal view, I see no point in wasting time on this issue on CIU

I also would recommend also Stuarts image, this would be a an opportunity for you to do something constructive and positive for the industry, I support this 100%

Balls in your court

[MATT BATEMAN (OWC)]

For example, the picture doesn't address staff training or equipment maintenance. Thats because it isnt the question.

So I'll stick with the original answer, plus:
- Driver license / vehicle pre-use checks Nothing to do with the job being discussed
- a second person to act as a watchout / banksman
- Waterproof PPE clothing Waterproof, really?
- Welfare facilities What, I hope he's not suggesting a porty-loo on site.
- liase with the shopkeepers to reduce business disruption Oh for gods sake.
The list could be endless  Depends how bored you are I guess




That leaves a large, open, inviting space for people to walk underneath the working area, regardless of any signs and bollards. If there are signs and bollards, you Know what they say about not being able to educate a turd.
The public are going to get wet at best, and even worse if there is an equipment failure. With that attitude Im surprised the H&S man gets as far wiping his arse in the morning.

It is work at height - even when the user is standing at ground level. Anything to guarantee a days work I suppose

The window cleaners I do work for go out and clean the high street shopping areas at 4am to 6am to beat the rush. What of? Suicidal pedestrians?
Hence my comment about your upstairs residents being woken up when the reach & wash gear is banging on the windows before dawn. Hey they asked for their windows to be cleaned
I would do it at another time of low pedestrain traffic, and/or low vehicular traffic to avoid disruption. Oh come on, you only work 9-5 sat behind a desk

 


Stuart could you get this fella to join the forum?

[trevor perry]

So a topic is raised and Andrew gives his opinion, he is vilified because of it.

I present a similar scenario and the advice from a H&S trainer is just about the same and guess what...?

this scenario is nothing like the one Andrew uses in his course and the outcome Andrew recommended for his scenario was a cherrypicker, if Andrew does not want to post his picture then that is his decision but it would of been good to get other window cleaners thoughts just as it was good to get thoughts on your scenario in which I would of used warning cones and had a banksman, the other risks manual handling slips and trips are already covered in my risk assessments.
  I honestly had not thought of the pidgeon poo problem but would of thought the fact that it would be wet down would remove the risk for the amount that is present, we could go further what about willes disease from handling trailing hoses where rats might of urinated it would probably be wise to wash hands after handling the hose on each job.
 

Trevor, Initially I had no problem, then thinking about it is there really any point.  

Over the weekend on the FWC SOS Facebook your clearly spelt out your support for our trade association. What I feel would put closure on this whole matter and would clearly help certain CIU members would be to call a meeting with Bryan Dolby and the FWC committee, request our trade association cover the cost of a QC, invite the working at height team from the HSE, representatives from Lloyds underwriting, and a Judge. I!ll attend along with a couple of contacts and we can address the photos and the case I use. I will be happy to provide all the information and other examples this way we can challange all attendng. Clearly the traffic this subject gets warrants our trade association clearing up the doubt, uncertaincy and arrive at a difinitive legal view, I see no point in wasting time on this issue on CIU

I also would recommend also Stuarts image, this would be a an opportunity for you to do something constructive and positive for the industry, I support this 100%

Balls in your court

 Andrew I don't want to make a big deal out of this i just thought it would be good to get other window cleaners views I cant see the point of paying a QC and a judge etc a shed full of money from members subscriptions. These men would have no experience of window cleaning so cant understand why I would want their opinion when the FED is quite capable of coming up with guidance for our industry.
  My attitude obviously winds you up a bit the same as some of your views irritate me and I don't want to get into an argument with you as I do value many of your opinions so lets just say we agree to disagree.

[windiewasher]

ffs what a load of faff,wouldnt think twice about health and safety I would just clean them and get on with it!
Its more dangerous crossing the road
We are window cleaners that clean windows and don't think about stupid what ifs!
Time you had counted lumps of dog doo I would be finished and on another job!

[wpclean]

How many people have been injured by being hit by a falling water fed pole ?  . . . .  Many people are now earning there living by dreaming up new theoretical ways of how people could be harmed, by a million to one chance event !

They claim to be " making it safer ", but in reality are not only lining their own pockets, but worse,are putting a financial burden on ordinary businesses.

[windiewasher]

How many people have been injured by being hit by a falling water fed pole ?  . . . .  Many people are now earning there living by dreaming up new theoretical ways of how people could be harmed, by a million to one chance event !

They claim to be " making it safer ", but in reality are not only lining their own pockets, but worse,are putting a financial burden on ordinary businesses.

+1
That's the trouble with this industry that theres so many slithery snakes trying to earn money coming out with such clap trap!
Too many greedy lazy people who seem to feel they are involved with the industry but aren't!

[DG Cleaning]

How many people have been injured by being hit by a falling water fed pole ?  . . . .  Many people are now earning there living by dreaming up new theoretical ways of how people could be harmed, by a million to one chance event !

They claim to be " making it safer ", but in reality are not only lining their own pockets, but worse,are putting a financial burden on ordinary businesses.

+1
That's the trouble with this industry that theres so many slithery snakes trying to earn money coming out with such clap trap!
Too many greedy lazy people who seem to feel they are involved with the industry but aren't!

+2
I'd love someone to show up here with some hard facts about poles injuring someone.
I dare say I could let my pole fall on someone the brush is so light it probably wouldn't injure them.

[PoleKing]

Lad I know dropped a 72' with an 18inch commercial brush.
Hit a parked car.
Didn't even dent the roof, just a bit if t cutting and it was right as rain.
Don't think thee are many heavier poles than that.

Wouldn't do your bonce and favours if it GD clonked you on the noggin though I shouldn't think.

[rosskesava]

I thought H & S was about managing risk to an acceptable level taking into account the job being done and the circumstances.

Seems for some it's about eliminating any potential risk to the point where working becomes impossible.

When crossing the road there's a risk of getting run over but that does not mean you cannot dross the road because of that risk.

[Frankybadboy]

ffs what a load of faff,wouldnt think twice about health and safety I would just clean them and get on with it!
Its more dangerous crossing the road
We are window cleaners that clean windows and don't think about stupid what ifs!
Time you had counted lumps of dog doo I would be finished and on another job!

and you are thinking of employing,your be a great boss to work for