[SunShineCleaning]

Below is the question and photo I posted on a H&S forum I use.


We use a 30 foot water fed pole to clean these windows.

Any dangers?



This is the conversation:

Loads.
Manual handling / RSI / slips & trips / moving vehicles / work in low light / cold / wet / sun / ice / snow / live street lights at 240v / Pigeon poo / dog dirt / abuse and harrassment from passers by /
And finally - annoying the residents before 6am in the morning, because that is the time of low traffic volume, and your only opportunity to safely park on the road and block the pavements.

Where do I claim my prize sir.

Sorry no prize.

I meant any that you can see have yet to be addressed.

In other words what further should the operator do to minimise risk.

 



Wow - that's a difficult question Stuart.
For example, the picture doesn't address staff training or equipment maintenance.

So I'll stick with the original answer, plus:
- Driver license / vehicle pre-use checks
- a second person to act as a watchout / banksman
- Waterproof PPE clothing
- Welfare facilities
- liase with the shopkeepers to reduce business disruption
The list could be endless


Thanks for your replies.

I'll come clean, it has been suggested that due to falling poles etc that the area be cordoned off somehow, or that a banksman be used.
Does that sound reasonable?

Yes it does Stuart.
The user will need to be standing kerbside on the pavement to get the upwards reach onto the top windows.
That leaves a large, open, inviting space for people to walk underneath the working area, regardless of any signs and bollards.
The public are going to get wet at best, and even worse if there is an equipment failure.

It is work at height - even when the user is standing at ground level.

The window cleaners I do work for go out and clean the high street shopping areas at 4am to 6am to beat the rush.
Hence my comment about your upstairs residents being woken up when the reach & wash gear is banging on the windows before dawn.
I would do it at another time of low pedestrain traffic, and/or low vehicular traffic to avoid disruption.

[Pete Thompson]

Forums are full of people who think they are experts but actually know little.  Just look at this one  

And H&S forums will be full of people who love to put restrictions on how you work, cos they'll all be H&S jobsworths.

Perfect example:

- liase with the shopkeepers to reduce business disruption

Is that a H&S consideration?  NOPE!

I notice he didn't ask how long it would take, which would surely be an important factor to consider if cordons etc would be resonable.  (ie is it reasonably practical to spend an hour setting up a cordon for a 10 minute job?  Probably not.)

Sorry but I'd take no notice.  The opinions of H&S busybody's don't mean anything, they only way you can find out is if you're in court and the judge makes a ruling that you didn't comply.  Would any reasonable person think you needed a cordon for a 10 minute job?  Nah.

[andyM]

I would agree that a second person as a lookout would be sensible.
But also think that the respondent to your question has gone overboard with a lot of his advice, some of which is negligible.

[SunShineCleaning]

He works in the H&S sector and advises window cleaners.

He is the guy that the courts would ask if it is a reasonable thing to do or not.

[andyM]

He works in the H&S sector and advises window cleaners.

He is the guy that the courts would ask if it is a reasonable thing to do or not.

How credible is this person?
Has he ever been summoned to a court case, or is it possible that one day he might be asked?
And if he has been to court what cases has he been involved in?

 

[Pete Thompson]

He works in the H&S sector and advises window cleaners.

He is the guy that the courts would ask if it is a reasonable thing to do or not.

Yeah yeah.  Don't believe everything you read on forums.

"I work in the H&S sector" may mean "I'm the designated H&S person for my compnay of 5 people, and I tell the window cleaners what to do"

Advises courts what's reasonable?  Again, pinch of salt time.

remember H&S jobsworths always want to highlight risks that are so small they are negligable.  And if he does indeed "work in the H&S sector and advise what's reasonable" then why didnt he ask how long the job would take?  Vital information in deciding IMO.

[steve scotter]

I often find that when people are trying to tell me about H&S they do not hold any qualifications.

H&S is about risk and the controls, if a ten minute cleaning task is low risk then stick up a warning sign and start work.

If a ten minute work task is high risk, controls are needed.


Steve

[andyM]

Well let's not poo poo the point of Stuart's post because it is beneficial to all of us.
But I do feel it's important to know how well qualified and experienced the H&S advisor is to make a judgement on his credibility in these matters.
I would challenge some of the points he made such as waterproof ppe being a requirement, abuse and harassment from passers-by, pigeon poo etc.

  

[steve scotter]

It depends if your cleaning as a self employed cleaner you need to know about the regulations but you may not be putting employees at risk, so a lot and health and safety like water proof PPE may not be required.

But if you are employing someone to do the work for you..............


Having said that you are responsible for your actions and omissions from your work tasks.

H&S is about common sense and self employed people have bags of it.


Steve

[SunShineCleaning]

Well let's not poo poo the point of Stuart's post because it iqualificationsal to all of us.
But I do feel it's important to know how well qualified and experienced the H&S advisor is to make a judgement on his credibility in these matters.
I would challenge some of points he made such as waterproof ppe being a requirement, abuse and harassment from passers-by, pigeon poo etc.

  

Thank you for not poo pooing. At least you see the point. As for their qualifications I will ask, but I may just as well ask Pete what his qualifications are for his point of view.

[steve scotter]

H&S advisers need to be qualified/competent to give advice as this is a serious subject and most are.

Steve

[Pete Thompson]

H&S advisers need to be qualified/competent to give advice as this is a serious subject and most are.

They don't need to be qualified to give advice on a forum though.

As for my qualifications - my most important one is that I have common sense!  I don't need a qualification to tell me that spending an hour setting up a cordon for a 10 mnute job is not reasonably practical.  its OBVIOUS.  And I'm sure any court would agree with me.

 and I know how to window clean.  I've also seen what the law says in one of the many impact43 topics, and to me its pretty obvious you don't need a cordon.  You don't need H&S qualifications to make sense of it IMO

If he is such an expert on this, ask him :

- How many prosecutions have there been against window cleaners using poles who didnt use a cordon?
- How many people have been injured by falling poles in the last 5 years?

Sunshine, give us a link to this forum, I think we should organise a CIU invasion force.

[formb]

Oh Lordie; we're not back on the cordon debate again are we?

 

[SunShineCleaning]

So a topic is raised and Andrew gives his opinion, he is vilified because of it.

I present a similar scenario and the advice from a H&S trainer is just about the same and guess what...?

[formb]

So a topic is raised and Andrew gives his opinion, he is vilified because of it.

I present a similar scenario and the advice from a H&S trainer is just about the same and guess what...?

Look; if you are not interested in the response of others on this forum and feel you are vilified for raising your opinion. Don't.

[SunShineCleaning]

So a topic is raised and Andrew gives his opinion, he is vilified because of it.

I present a similar scenario and the advice from a H&S trainer is just about the same and guess what...?

Look; if you are not interested in the response of others on this forum and feel you are vilified for raising your opinion. Don't.

I don't mind what posters say. Trevor was asking for andrews picture so he could debate it. I'm simply showing that Andrews view is consistant with other H&S trainers.

[formb]

I'll come clean, it has been suggested that due to falling poles etc that the area be cordoned off somehow, or that a banksman be used.
Does that sound reasonable?

That is a loaded question. He's not going to say no is he? That would be a ridiculous thing for a H&S person to say. He gave you the answer you knew he would give. If you had explained to him that if you were to cordon the area you clean in all day every day you'd be bust in a month; his response would be different.

Edit: In fact when I think about it you asked him for advice on it; a cordon was not mentioned in his reply so you loaded your question to get the answer you wanted. The cordon was not suggested by your H&S expert it was you.

[trevor perry]

So a topic is raised and Andrew gives his opinion, he is vilified because of it.

I present a similar scenario and the advice from a H&S trainer is just about the same and guess what...?

this scenario is nothing like the one Andrew uses in his course and the outcome Andrew recommended for his scenario was a cherrypicker, if Andrew does not want to post his picture then that is his decision but it would of been good to get other window cleaners thoughts just as it was good to get thoughts on your scenario in which I would of used warning cones and had a banksman, the other risks manual handling slips and trips are already covered in my risk assessments.
  I honestly had not thought of the pidgeon poo problem but would of thought the fact that it would be wet down would remove the risk for the amount that is present, we could go further what about willes disease from handling trailing hoses where rats might of urinated it would probably be wise to wash hands after handling the hose on each job.
 

[Sean Dyer]

What trevor just said is so true!
I wonder if they looked at a section of our hose in a microscope what nasties are residing there, might be time to anti bac my hose !
I always reel in with a cloth in hand and use antibacterial gel but still weils disease would be easily on hoses after all the ground they cover and the areas they go in ....
i've had a bad infection in my foot which i reckon is work related , had best part of 4 weeks off now and still lay up on antibiotics so i take it seriously now avoiding infection!

[SunShineCleaning]

I'll come clean, it has been suggested that due to falling poles etc that the area be cordoned off somehow, or that a banksman be used.
Does that sound reasonable?

That is a loaded question. He's not going to say no is he? That would be a ridiculous thing for a H&S person to say. He gave you the answer you knew he would give. If you had explained to him that if you were to cordon the area you clean in all day every day you'd be bust in a month; his response would be different.

Edit: In fact when I think about it you asked him for advice on it; a cordon was not mentioned in his reply so you loaded your question to get the answer you wanted. The cordon was not suggested by your H&S expert it was you.

I was careful not to ask that question first, it was only after he had mentioned a banksman.

Trevor, this may not be the same picture as Andrew used as I don't work in the same environment that the said picture was taken.

The point of this is to demonstrate that H&S trainers think in a similar way. Do you remember my picture of the windows next to the river? You would just love the replies I received.