[SunShineCleaning]

So a topic is raised and Andrew gives his opinion, he is vilified because of it.

I present a similar scenario and the advice from a H&S trainer is just about the same and guess what...?

this scenario is nothing like the one Andrew uses in his course and the outcome Andrew recommended for his scenario was a cherrypicker, if Andrew does not want to post his picture then that is his decision but it would of been good to get other window cleaners thoughts just as it was good to get thoughts on your scenario in which I would of used warning cones and had a banksman, the other risks manual handling slips and trips are already covered in my risk assessments.
  I honestly had not thought of the pidgeon poo problem but would of thought the fact that it would be wet down would remove the risk for the amount that is present, we could go further what about willes disease from handling trailing hoses where rats might of urinated it would probably be wise to wash hands after handling the hose on each job.
  

Trevor, Initially I had no problem, then thinking about it is there really any point.  

Over the weekend on the FWC SOS Facebook your clearly spelt out your support for our trade association. What I feel would put closure on this whole matter and would clearly help certain CIU members would be to call a meeting with Bryan Dolby and the FWC committee, request our trade association cover the cost of a QC, invite the working at height team from the HSE, representatives from Lloyds underwriting, and a Judge. I!ll attend along with a couple of contacts and we can address the photos and the case I use. I will be happy to provide all the information and other examples this way we can challange all attendng. Clearly the traffic this subject gets warrants our trade association clearing up the doubt, uncertaincy and arrive at a difinitive legal view, I see no point in wasting time on this issue on CIU

I also would recommend also Stuarts image, this would be a an opportunity for you to do something constructive and positive for the industry, I support this 100%

Balls in your court

 Andrew I don't want to make a big deal out of this i just thought it would be good to get other window cleaners views I cant see the point of paying a QC and a judge etc a shed full of money from members subscriptions. These men would have no experience of window cleaning so cant understand why I would want their opinion when the FED is quite capable of coming up with guidance for our industry.
  My attitude obviously winds you up a bit the same as some of your views irritate me and I don't want to get into an argument with you as I do value many of your opinions so lets just say we agree to disagree.

I can't seem to find any written info on this issue from the FWC, maybe you could help us out Trevor

[robertphil]

i saw a really good cordon tother week. fascia lads had it set up in a front garden ,they were fitting a fascia to a house .  cordons are better than cones

up the cordons!!

[trevor perry]

So a topic is raised and Andrew gives his opinion, he is vilified because of it.

I present a similar scenario and the advice from a H&S trainer is just about the same and guess what...?

this scenario is nothing like the one Andrew uses in his course and the outcome Andrew recommended for his scenario was a cherrypicker, if Andrew does not want to post his picture then that is his decision but it would of been good to get other window cleaners thoughts just as it was good to get thoughts on your scenario in which I would of used warning cones and had a banksman, the other risks manual handling slips and trips are already covered in my risk assessments.
  I honestly had not thought of the pidgeon poo problem but would of thought the fact that it would be wet down would remove the risk for the amount that is present, we could go further what about willes disease from handling trailing hoses where rats might of urinated it would probably be wise to wash hands after handling the hose on each job.
  

Trevor, Initially I had no problem, then thinking about it is there really any point.  

Over the weekend on the FWC SOS Facebook your clearly spelt out your support for our trade association. What I feel would put closure on this whole matter and would clearly help certain CIU members would be to call a meeting with Bryan Dolby and the FWC committee, request our trade association cover the cost of a QC, invite the working at height team from the HSE, representatives from Lloyds underwriting, and a Judge. I!ll attend along with a couple of contacts and we can address the photos and the case I use. I will be happy to provide all the information and other examples this way we can challange all attendng. Clearly the traffic this subject gets warrants our trade association clearing up the doubt, uncertaincy and arrive at a difinitive legal view, I see no point in wasting time on this issue on CIU

I also would recommend also Stuarts image, this would be a an opportunity for you to do something constructive and positive for the industry, I support this 100%

Balls in your court

 Andrew I don't want to make a big deal out of this i just thought it would be good to get other window cleaners views I cant see the point of paying a QC and a judge etc a shed full of money from members subscriptions. These men would have no experience of window cleaning so cant understand why I would want their opinion when the FED is quite capable of coming up with guidance for our industry.
  My attitude obviously winds you up a bit the same as some of your views irritate me and I don't want to get into an argument with you as I do value many of your opinions so lets just say we agree to disagree.

I can't seem to find any written info on this issue from the FWC, maybe you could help us out Trevor
[/qu


Here is a link http://www.f-w-c.co.uk/water_fed_poles.htm is a link

[formb]

http://www.f-w-c.co.uk/documents/Safety_in_Window_Cleaning_using_Waterfed_Pole_Systems.Ameded2.pdf

[SunShineCleaning]

http://www.f-w-c.co.uk/documents/Safety_in_Window_Cleaning_using_Waterfed_Pole_Systems.Ameded2.pdf




Page 5 under Risk Assessment, I rest my case

[andyM]

Stuart have you read page 6 of the FWC document?
What do you think of the DO'S & DON'TS:
*Always cordon off and/or display suitable warning signs when working in public areas

Hardly definitive about cordoning off is it?
As they give the option of using suitable warning signs instead of a cordon.

[CleanClear]

http://www.f-w-c.co.uk/documents/Safety_in_Window_Cleaning_using_Waterfed_Pole_Systems.Ameded2.pdf




Page 5 under Risk Assessment, I rest my case

How do you cordon the road off, or do you ask the council for a road closure?

[CleanClear]

Lad I know dropped a 72' with an 18inch commercial brush.
Hit a parked car.
Didn't even dent the roof, just a bit if t cutting and it was right as rain.
Don't think thee are many heavier poles than that.

Wouldn't do your bonce and favours if it GD clonked you on the noggin though I shouldn't think.

You don't say what height he dropped the pole from. I know from personal experience that they will more than put a dent in a car roof from about 50 foot. I've snapped an Smax clean in half. Someone else from here dropped one and snapped a heavy vikan brush clean in half.

[SunShineCleaning]

We are getting somewhere now.

My picture IS different from Andrew's and the FWC guidelines DO mention cordoning off.

Andrew's picture was on more of a plaza.

So seeing as 2 training providers and the FWC say that there are circumstances where cordoning may be used, under what circumstances WOULD you use a cordon?

[formb]

We are getting somewhere now.

My picture IS different from Andrew's and the FWC guidelines DO mention cordoning off.

Andrew's picture was on more of a plaza.

So seeing as 2 training providers and the FWC say that there are circumstances where cordoning may be used, under what circumstances WOULD you use a cordon?

That'll be when it is reasonably practicable to do so of course!

[SunShineCleaning]

We are getting somewhere now.

My picture IS different from Andrew's and the FWC guidelines DO mention cordoning off.

Andrew's picture was on more of a plaza.

So seeing as 2 training providers and the FWC say that there are circumstances where cordoning may be used, under what circumstances WOULD you use a cordon?

That'll be when it is reasonably practicable to do so of course!

Top politicians answer. Like it.

[andyM]

We are getting somewhere now.

My picture IS different from Andrew's and the FWC guidelines DO mention cordoning off.

Andrew's picture was on more of a plaza.

So seeing as 2 training providers and the FWC say that there are circumstances where cordoning may be used, under what circumstances WOULD you use a cordon?

In a fictitious scenario which would look good on paper but wouldn't be practical to use in a real life situation?

[SunShineCleaning]

We are getting somewhere now.

My picture IS different from Andrew's and the FWC guidelines DO mention cordoning off.

Andrew's picture was on more of a plaza.

So seeing as 2 training providers and the FWC say that there are circumstances where cordoning may be used, under what circumstances WOULD you use a cordon?

In a fictitious scenario which would look good on paper but wouldn't be practical to use in a real life situation?

 

[andyM]

I retract the comment I made above ^.

But im struggling to see how it would be practical in a lot of situations.
The only situations I can think of would be:
1) A shopping precinct where no motor vehicles have access and where the cordon would not be restrictive to the general public.
2) A business premises where an area could be practically made "out of bounds" temporarily to other members of staff.
3) A pedestrianised high street.

What permissions would be required to cordon of an area in these situations, and where would you go to get permission and from whom?

[PoleKing]

Lad I know dropped a 72' with an 18inch commercial brush.
Hit a parked car.
Didn't even dent the roof, just a bit if t cutting and it was right as rain.
Don't think thee are many heavier poles than that.

Wouldn't do your bonce and favours if it GD clonked you on the noggin though I shouldn't think.

You don't say what height he dropped the pole from. I know from personal experience that they will more than put a dent in a car roof from about 50 foot. I've snapped an Smax clean in half. Someone else from here dropped one and snapped a heavy vikan brush clean in half.

It was fully extended. What's that-68foot?

[DG Cleaning]

I retract the comment I made above ^.

But im struggling to see how it would be practical in a lot of situations.
The only situations I can think of would be:
1) A shopping precinct where no motor vehicles have access and where the cordon would not be restrictive to the general public.
2) A business premises where an area could be practically made "out of bounds" temporarily to other members of staff.
3) A pedestrianised high street.

What permissions would be required to cordon of an area in these situations, and where would you go to get permission and from whom?

Its totally impractical and unnecessary to cordon this off.
I've cordoned off part of a street before to do this I had to go to the council and put in an application, fair bit of messing about with submitting drawings, risk assessment s etc.
The council then charged us per square metre per day for the area cordoned off and it wasn't cheap.

[trevor perry]

We are getting somewhere now.

My picture IS different from Andrew's and the FWC guidelines DO mention cordoning off.

Andrew's picture was on more of a plaza.

So seeing as 2 training providers and the FWC say that there are circumstances where cordoning may be used, under what circumstances WOULD you use a cordon?

 So you post a picture even though you know it was a lot different than Andrews scenario and use this as an example  to cordon off, on Andrews course I pointed out that cordoning area off would cause greater risk than not doing as pedestrians would now have to cross a busy road his answer was yes that is right so it was decided he would use a cherrypicker, this is the reason I was keen for him to post his picture, for you to deliver a multi ton cherrypicker in a busy town centre drive this over flags that you are not sure lies underneath, then maybe having to leave the machine unattended till it is picked up where temptation for young boys to have a mess with not to mention cost of machine and training for suitable operative, enviromental impact aswell as risks occurring from using a cherrypicker, how possibly can this be a constructive answer to the problem, it was just silly there have been far more accidents from cherrypickers than falling  water fed poles . My solution would of simply been use a trolley system with short hose and a warning cone which would of eliminated a trip hazard from running longer hoses, I would then of had a banksman to ensure pedestrians safety obviously wind speed and other weather conditions ie ice would also be taken into considersation.
  I don't think anyone has said  cordoning off should be ruled out on all occasions but this is not what Andrew is suggesting rather he is after putting in place a blanket rule or law that cordoning off must take place whereas the FED version gives the option of letting us think for ourselves and only use this precaution if we deem it needed.
 

[Moderator David@stives]

Stuart

Does  that PDF show you that the FWC does produce some useless stuff, and they actually do something ?

[SunShineCleaning]

Stuart

Does  that PDF show you that the FWC does produce some useless stuff, and they actually do something ?

Absolutely and whatever happens I will recommend people join.

Sorry to miss your call. On the phone and out on a bike ride tonight.

[SunShineCleaning]

We are getting somewhere now.

My picture IS different from Andrew's and the FWC guidelines DO mention cordoning off.

Andrew's picture was on more of a plaza.

So seeing as 2 training providers and the FWC say that there are circumstances where cordoning may be used, under what circumstances WOULD you use a cordon?

 So you post a picture even though you know it was a lot different than Andrews scenario and use this as an example  to cordon off, on Andrews course I pointed out that cordoning area off would cause greater risk than not doing as pedestrians would now have to cross a busy road his answer was yes that is right so it was decided he would use a cherrypicker, this is the reason I was keen for him to post his picture, for you to deliver a multi ton cherrypicker in a busy town centre drive this over flags that you are not sure lies underneath, then maybe having to leave the machine unattended till it is picked up where temptation for young boys to have a mess with not to mention cost of machine and training for suitable operative, enviromental impact aswell as risks occurring from using a cherrypicker, how possibly can this be a constructive answer to the problem, it was just silly there have been far more accidents from cherrypickers than falling  water fed poles . My solution would of simply been use a trolley system with short hose and a warning cone which would of eliminated a trip hazard from running longer hoses, I would then of had a banksman to ensure pedestrians safety obviously wind speed and other weather conditions ie ice would also be taken into considersation.
  I don't think anyone has said  cordoning off should be ruled out on all occasions but this is not what Andrew is suggesting rather he is after putting in place a blanket rule or law that cordoning off must take place whereas the FED version gives the option of letting us think for ourselves and only use this precaution if we deem it needed.
 

I have the pictures and will post them tomorrow.

You and Andrew will never agree so I'm not sure of your motive here. TBH I've had enough of trying to explain that H&S people see things differently to traders. I guess that's just how life is.