[JamesAJF]

it just another way of some other bloke to make money off u i cant see what advantages are im not paying my money every month for someone to have there sticker on my van and promote there business no thank you

Its an annual fee. Would you pay a small annual fee for 30 times worth or more back for your money?

have you 30 x your money or do they just say that out of interest.

[MATT BATEMAN (OWC)]

You without the S(hit).

I love you van pic in your post btw

This is what its from, off the website

You selling a Gardiner pole??

No, Im not selling one Lee, but there is a Gardiners 25' extreme pole up for grabs in a charity raffle I'm running.

Here

http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=172474.0

WOW brill Can I blog this on the Window Cleaning Magazine and network it for you??

Yes lee of course you can. Fire away.

[Lee Burbidge]

Key people are industry leaders so big company owners, manufacturers, etc etc and regular window cleaners like you and me

Big company owners - Like OCS etc, I don't consider them to be 'key people'.  Sure they may be big companies, but they have ZERO impact on my business.  They could do anything, say anything, think anything - it simply won't affect me.

Manufacturers - as I said, vested interests.  They are interested in selling stuff, nothing more.  And time and time again it has been shown that they will put their own interests ahead of the window cleaner. I can clearly remember a time when squeegee manufacturers were busy pointing out that wfp did a bad job, even though that's a lie and it is obviously the best thing to happen to the industry for decades.  They will say anything if it furthers their own interests - they just don't have the window cleaner's interests at heart.  If they produce a useful product - great I will use it.  But they are not in a position to dictate policy.

Regular window cleaners like you and me - I am not a 'key person' in this industry, and (no offense) neither are you.

This is an industry that has no 'key people', that's just the nature of it.  I actually think this is a good thing, because it means anyone can start and run a successful window cleaning business without having to worry about what standards other people may or may not think should be applied.

It's window cleaning - it's a service.  The only 'Key People' are my customers.  I couldn't care less what anyone else thinks, no matter how important they may think they are.

So you disagree with trade representation?   

[Lee Burbidge]

Hi Lee
I get the feel that your intentions are all in the right places, so please dont think i am saying you want this for personel gain. I do understand that you feel if people have a gripe over something that it could make a difference. But experience tells me these "clubs" rarely work for the members....they say they do.!
Just mine/friends experience is they are not worth joining. I have read so many trade magazines over the years and what the average builder, roofer, plumber etc etc wants at grass roots does not change. Trade bodies, fedarations, gas safe etc they are all big money spinners.
Take Corgi now gas safe.....I have a friend who is qualified time served plumber. Has his gas safe cards to work on major industrial work...hospitals being one of his last big jobs. ......But for him to work on a house and instal a boiler he has to take another exam costing a few thousand pound. "not qualified to work on houses"

My boss joined fed of master buiders years ago....rep called at job, said looks like you know what your doing, hands over a cheque and stickers and was gone. Never got a job from them.

I dont wish to sound rude and i know some will slate me for this.....but window cleaning is not a "trade"....yes its a service and a good business. One that is devoid of regulation, because it really does not need any. I do strongley feel the more people push for fedarations etc the more paperwork we will all end up with. And will it benefit us....NO it will just mean a few quid a month less in your pocket.

Like the licence thing in scotland....does it stop the dole boys, partime fireman etc...No, never will. Same as the building game, those who are scared of the law will pay and those who are chancers will not. And do customers really care...No...because after all these years why do we still hear of and see cowboy builder programs. Because customers are driven by price most of the time. Not by a sticker or id card. Some of the best builders i know are not in any clubs.....some of the worst are!

I love the fact that i am now building a business in a job that has no paperwork. Not because im scared of it, but because it wastes time and money. I think the forums are great with loads of tips and help.
Let window cleaning stay as a job and keep it off the sights of the money grabbers.

All people need to do if they want big work is go for the health and saftey, cherry picker etc courses if needed. if not just stick to doing a good job, and earning money.

Thats my take on it all anyway lol

Hey, dude Im guessing your are opposed to trade representation? Can I ask you a question? Who would you feel would need a trade body the most? Are you anti-regulation? If so why?

[Lee Burbidge]

Thanks Samson

And Pete,.....You are right, the key players are the customers.
Like i said in my post, the "key players" who decided to set up the solar rade bodies and grant systems were all from big companies. Not once was a grass roots company asked. Because as you say they have a vested interest in how policy is made or changed.
For hundreds of years big companies have been the ones who dictate how policy, progress etc etc happens in any given trade or business. Not the small guy!

Whats changed.....They found a way of making us believe we have a voice if we join their club!!...Oh and pay to join as well lol

Maybe i'm being blind, but what would we need a "club" for?
Life is complicated enough, keep it simple, be as big or little as you like....but just worry about your customers and business and you cant go far wrong.

Licensing is again hotting up in our Facebook Group https://www.facebook.com/groups/180431838757586/ claims of it not being fair etc. It shouldn't be down to the little people like me and you. Our trade body should be championing a fairer system. The VAT question will come back soon no doubt as well. These are just two examples where a trade body can help. A trade body should be giving you lots as part of the package..... it needs to add value to your business and done right it can from health & safety hotlines to employment law a one stop shop from marketing to webinars on building a business... there is heaps the FWC could do... There should be levels of membership too as a guy on his own is going to have slightly different need to the large corp. You should be given leads for new work in your area, the list can be endless

To your customers at a glance they can see your insured without asking.... clearly its not for some. Depends what your plan is. Some dont read window cleaning magazines, they just go to work and thats all they want. A lot do though....  The first question I guess to ask is: Is a trade body right for your business?

[Lee Burbidge]

if the only key people are your customers what about people like Alex Gardiner, Pheonix pure freedom etc that make your working life a lot easier since the old alu poles etc

I agree.

[Lee Burbidge]

Key people are industry leaders so big company owners, manufacturers, etc etc and regular window cleaners like you and me

Big company owners - Like OCS etc, I don't consider them to be 'key people'.  Sure they may be big companies, but they have ZERO impact on my business.  They could do anything, say anything, think anything - it simply won't affect me.

Manufacturers - as I said, vested interests.  They are interested in selling stuff, nothing more.  And time and time again it has been shown that they will put their own interests ahead of the window cleaner. I can clearly remember a time when squeegee manufacturers were busy pointing out that wfp did a bad job, even though that's a lie and it is obviously the best thing to happen to the industry for decades.  They will say anything if it furthers their own interests - they just don't have the window cleaner's interests at heart.  If they produce a useful product - great I will use it.  But they are not in a position to dictate policy.

Regular window cleaners like you and me - I am not a 'key person' in this industry, and (no offense) neither are you.

This is an industry that has no 'key people', that's just the nature of it.  I actually think this is a good thing, because it means anyone can start and run a successful window cleaning business without having to worry about what standards other people may or may not think should be applied.

It's window cleaning - it's a service.  The only 'Key People' are my customers.  I couldn't care less what anyone else thinks, no matter how important they may think they are.

This was posted on our FB Group today. Is the type of thing you mean?

The FWC window cleaner of the year was given the award at the cleaning show this year:
http://www.linkedin.com/groups/Federation-Window-Cleaners-4155989

John Newins OCS Group.
In the rules for this award the FWC states that it can't go to an employee of an Executive member:
http://www.f-w-c.co.uk/documents/2012_Window_Cleaner_of_the_Year_ENTRY.fORM.pdf

The executive committee of FWC has a director of OCS as a member.

[Stephen Fox]

Lee, I think it's Beryl you mean, not Doris...................

[Lee Burbidge]

I'm an F.W.C member.  IMO, it used to be better.  The magazine WAS brilliant, now it's too full of adverts and not enough info for the reader.  I know advertising pays for mags like this, but it just seems more full than it used to be. It does throw up some gems of articles though and would be interested in writing one myself if you are interested Lee?

The plus points are that if you are a member, you can get heavily discounted corporate ads through the Hibu/Yell/The Artist Formerly Known As The Yellow Pages.  Yes, despite the internet being my main thrust for advertising, my cheap, but professional F.W.C. ad pays for itself every year.  Also, I get discounted public liability too.  What I save on those things, more than covers my subscription.

It was through the F.W.C. that I did my Working Safely IOSH course and am currently looking to do my Managing Safely IOSH and may well do it through the F.W.C. again.

I had a problem years ago with a customer threatening to stop a cheque payment because they were not happy with the standard of work.  I agreed to return to the customer that evening, but before I did, I called the F.W.C. legal dept.  They gave some brilliant advice on how to handle the situation with the customer and how I would stand legally if they stopped the cheque.  That cheque alone paid for a couple of years subscription.

The F.W.C. has been brilliant for me in years past.  Now though, I feel more like a loyal customer. I don't know who runs it fully, but it seems like it is run by old people.  There is nothing wrong with that inherently, but there is a new 21st century generation of entrepreneurs to aim for.  It somehow needs a new look and revamping for the visual and topical demands of the '@' and '#' young generation too. 

We are here as a market for you, pitch it to us properly and come and get us...

BOOM! thats it right there. Great post and says it all. I feel just like you, a loyal customer..... can you email me on lee@windowcleaningmagazine.co.uk

[Lee Burbidge]

F.W.C. is completely irrelevant to me as a window cleaner.

Why?

[Lee Burbidge]

Lee, I think it's Beryl you mean, not Doris...................

Hello Mr Fox. Doris?? Where did I write that. I know its Beryl. Have i missed something lol

[Lee Burbidge]

Stuart has set up a new FB Group for members and non members about 10 minutes ago FWC SOS, good or bad have a say https://www.facebook.com/groups/480148268730110/

Posts we receive here and other forums including FB and Twitter we will put them to the FWC...

[Stephen Fox]

Posts from the same topic in our Facebook group.....

I had a look at their website and had a chat with is it Doris who works for fwc at the cleaning show. she was very nice and friendly. Most of my customers and friends have never heard of fwc. They dont have a large membership. I actually thought they had closed down till i saw them in march at the show

By here mate...

[Lee Burbidge]

Posts from the same topic in our Facebook group.....

I had a look at their website and had a chat with is it Doris who works for fwc at the cleaning show. she was very nice and friendly. Most of my customers and friends have never heard of fwc. They dont have a large membership. I actually thought they had closed down till i saw them in march at the show

By here mate...

Ha! I see. Stuart wrote that on our FB Group. I copied and pasted his thread here from FB. Thanks Foxy, will correct him ( I must of missed it )

[SunShineCleaning]

Not me, I've never been to the show.

Bryan I have chatted to though.



What would everyone want from representation?

[Lee Burbidge]

Not me, I've never been to the show.

Bryan I have chatted to though.



What would everyone want from representation?

Good question. The sole trader will want different things from the SM business to the Big Corp.

[Lee Burbidge]

There is a movement that has started and we are shoe horning the FWC open for talks on change..... this is what I wrote to them and the first comments that have come back so far.....

Gary Johns • Good morning all, I have spent sometime reading through all the comments, and great ideas from people within the industry, what I would suggest is for those who are not members of the committee and feel they are passionate about the industry should get involved with the FWC and attend the meetings, the only way the FWC is going to improve its membership, is by ensuring it listens to the members and non-members. I have sat on the committee and the people involved give up a lot of their own time, mostly at no cost to the FWC, all want to create a better trade association, and ensure it is delivering what its members want.......... so what do members want from a trade association, training, advice, support on business planning and marketing, health and safety guidance, I would agree that the FWC can provide all of those, but most members want the FWC badge on their vehicle its that simple....... so the FWC needs to work collaboratively with safecontractor and chas to ensure that members when they join, providing the pass all the set criteria are awarded these automatically as part of the membership, I am sure there are plenty of window cleaners out there who dread the thought of having to complete the safecontractor pack.... as a national commercial window cleaning supplier, I know we dread the renewal. I know Bryan previous chairman has talked about delivering different levels of membership, Gold, Bronze etc at which you would get different benefits. We would pay more to ensure we are members of 3 recognised bodies if it meant less work. As for training, I agree the FWC should not become a training provider, it has to stay impartial to the industry and offer the best advice to its members. The course that the FWC provide is a great course, and a funding stream the FWC needs, and anyone who has been on the course, can say it is excellent, a course designed for the industry, by people from the industry. Finally the FWC has to change with the times, yes there are more and more window cleaners in the industry setting up on their own, but the FWC has and continues to miss out on a sector of the industry that is responsible for a huge amount of the market... COMMERCIAL window cleaners, the FWC has to provide a service to these players in the market, maybe again the safecontractor, chas collaboration ? this would be a great point to be in when completing tenders for window cleaning " if you are a member of the FWC Commercial Award Scheme, (which awards you safecontractor and chas), then please ignore the next 30 health and safety questions"...................................................... just my personal thoughts.


My reply to this:

Lee Burbidge • Without Prejudice:

This is from the heart, no offense is meant. I hopefully say it as I see it.

Hi Gary - the problem is members passionate about the FWC ARE NOT LISTENED TO! Nothing EVER gets done. I have spoke to Bryan -he told me yes you have good ideas Lee, we do need new blood blah blah blah. I will call a meeting and discuss it. That was 6 months ago. I started my magazine back in October 2012, back then I held the FWC debate in CIU and I had what seemed a ream of paper of feed back for the FWC. Beryl asked me to send it, so I did out of concern and optimism but then NOTHING.
Even Andrew Willis has tried, one of many before him, they try, they hit a brick wall. I would be asking why? What is the common denominator to failing to act? Find it and get rid of it.
With the utmost respect if the FWC does not pull up its socks they will be either competing against a new Federation or the whole board needs to be voted out!. And that is not good for the FWC, not a good image. Its easy to be critical I hear you say, all these ideas take money and effort. Correct.... come up with a plan and those that want to execute within your budget cut any dead wood and move yourself into the stratosphere.
Too many members ( not all but more than is healthy) are confused by the FWC as to what it stands for and it currently holds no value to any business. Oh yeah, you get a badge - whoopi doo. If the FWC thinks that the badge alone helps to make its members money or improve its image they are INSANE The FWC currently has an image problem of its own!
In fact some dont join because they state " Im not paying that just for a badge"

We have seen Governments and countries take the wrath of people power when they have had enough.... FWC are on the brink of a disaster.

Even the simple stuff like taking calls, getting back to people is flawed. I have experienced this routinely and so have others. Sometimes the phone line constantly rings. Great for Corporate members looking for advise as he hangs from powered access. Not.

Great one, - bouncing it back to the members about 'getting involved' their already demoralized!! Your on damage limitation now. Its up to you with the remaining scraps of the industry still clinging in for great change. FWC needs a facelift ( no pun there Mike Howard) and there are the powers sitting on the side lines ready for the Phoenix to rise ( bugger another Mike Howard gaff) to help the FWC.

Its up to you to come up with the goods or put in those that can. Simply asking members what they want is not enough.... where the hell are YOUR ideas!!!!!!!

The same powers are looking to create a brand new Federation should you fail. Please do not say ' you have heard this before in the pass', or ' some one is always talking about setting up a new Fed' the industry has had enough.

Personally, if the board are going to mess this one up this time and do nothing then its all to play and open season.....

HERE IS YOUR PLAN:

Call a meeting to discuss ideas. Find out the dream list of benefits for a federation!!

Involve do'ers in a steering committee

Vote in ACTION people on the board

Discuss raising the FWC profile through all means.

Cut costs and divert resources.

Work on your communications and hotlines.

Offer the ultimate package to members... the one stop shop!! Corp level, SM level, one man band level - they all have different needs.

But , seriously, change! Put a new team in for change NOW!

P.S thats that off my chest P.P.S I pay my membership every year since 1999 I sick of you being to busy to return my call or email, Im nothing special it happens to others. Shocking!!


Lee Burbidge • Making voting easier. Members should sign up with all the usuals as well as an email address so that votes can be sorted quicker, actions can executed quicker. Frankly, meetings about meetings never get things done.... it shouldn't be down to little people like me to fight for issues that concern our industry. Be proactive not reactive. Think ahead of your members. Knock their socks off BOOM!

A response from John at FWC:

Gary Johns • WOW Lee I bet you feel better after that....... I have to agree with some of your comments, the FWC does need to change, and there are people on the Board that also want that change, I personally think FWC is a great federation, but I am also afraid for its continuity is a very tough market, where we are all looking to cut costs, so the FWC does need to listen and move with the times. engage with its members on social media, twitter, you tube, linkedin etc My only other suggestion would be to involve more commercial cleaning companies on the board, this is in no way to knock the one man window cleaners, but the FWC is competing in a commercial market place and to move forward quickly it needs to have as you say "action" people on the board, but and I say this with a huge respect for the FWC if those people are not listened to, or allowed the freedom to make decisions on behalf of the FWC without having to wait for a meeting to agree everything, then they will very quickly loose interest. Marketing is definitely something that needs a overhaul and this needs to be done with a company like Ceris Burns International who would do some great work..... Lee maybe you should stand for Chair, I know I would be happy to stand for this role, if I had the time to put the required effort in to make the changes needed. People who are accepted on the committee should be there based on what they can bring new to the table and how they are able to drive the change... if they cant or dont want to then there is no point in them being there.

My latest response:


Lee Burbidge • Ha! Yes I guess I have kept silent for so long I kinda exploded. I suppose its apt tho tough talk to move the FED is paramount now. Offering value for money for membership, ( scrub that) out stripping value for money for membership can be done sooooooo easily. It can be done creatively.Totally agree Gary with your comments its good to hear that there are people looking to make changes. I would looooove to hear there ideas. Using a marketing company for damage limitation is a great start but a clear agenda with targeted marketing to prevent run away costs is probably the efforts that the FWC may need.
Its not just more commercial guys you need, you need everyone on board lol but I get your point. Tapping into commercial companies that use training companies is a start. The FED should be everywhere. I advertise the FWC ad off my own back free of charge in my mag. I dont know why anymore lol
Let me make this clear, Im not a trouble maker and I am not for 'FWC' bashing. There is a movement, people are talking on mobile phones and social media.

The message is the same. Enough is enough, change or get out and let somebody else have a go. Yoking strength and ideas, listening to people, acting.

I would love to sit on the Board and help with ideas as a coalition. How often does the FWC involve members?? Get them to vote on the big issues keep them involved through emails by vote.

The road aint gonna be smooth. Thats not important the direction of the road is.....

Gary, lets get the talking going. I believe the FWC have a meeting on Monday? God Im well informed

p.s I dont where I find all these flowery words from.

[Lee Burbidge]

The Big FWC debate join in for change - the movement for change is here... https://www.facebook.com/groups/480148268730110/

[Andrew Willis]

The Big FWC debate join in for change - the movement for change is here... https://www.facebook.com/groups/480148268730110/

Much needed, time for change 

[Lee Burbidge]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pa5EOUSi2Do&feature=share&list=UUCOaSlHI7OgFxaTrJjvGr4Q

Watch this 1 minute film and have your say