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rosskesava

Re: Another one bites the dust
« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2006, 11:16:26 pm »
Hi Neil

With the bird poo problem - how do you look 2 or 3 floor up with a sometimes bright  blue sky shinning in your eyes, or worse, the sun, and see an outline of bird poo?

I'd love someone to explain this because I can't see it.

We done a large Victorian house last week and the windows looked good from ground level. I asked the lady if I could check from the inside and the job was ok. I wouldn't say it was gleaming and spotless but it was passable. On 3 of the upstairs windows I could see those outlines of bird doos. (She wasn't worried about that in the slighest as the job couldn't be done trad style anyway)

From the ground those marks were invisible and that was with 3 sets of eyes trying to see them. what do you do? Use all your water on one house just in case there is any bird whatsits?

Aslo, it's often not the lost customer that is my problem, as that will happen, it's the complaints and the going back to a job.

If you work alone then maybe that is not so serious but I have to keep 3 people working (and sometimes 4 or 5 or more) and working profitably, then the one job that needs doing again can cost the days profits or a large part of but whatever, it costs money which would not have been an expense with trad methods.

I bought an RO sytem based on what is it claimed to do. Sometimes it does not do the job I paid money out for.

What I'm saying about wfp is it's not all it's cracked up to be for some jobs and it does not remove a lot of marks from windows and to say there will never being spotting from contaiminants from the frames or walls, especially on the ground floor, is simply not true. If water runs down a wall from above and down the glass below it will have contaminants in it? It must have. De ionised water attracts dirt, as is often posted, so if pure water is left running down the wall onto glass below it will have picked up contanination?

All wfp users have finished a job and the water is still dripping down from above. So why doesn't that water leave any marks or spots? It's contaminated from running down the brick work? Surely?

Or am I missing something?

Hi farkam

If you work alone then by the time you've done the tops wfp most of the water running down from above will have stopped. Then do the bottoms trad style. On your own - it's a quick and easy way to work. I'd go for it.

Hi Gaz - I want to try out one of your brushes. You've had good feedback so I'm interested.

Cheers all for your replies.

Morph

Re: Another one bites the dust
« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2006, 11:33:37 pm »
Reading your posts today, Ross, I would advise you to give up WFP and go back to trad work.
Sounds like you had less aggro that way.
Why bother?
So, some jobs are making you more money.  But reads like it isn't worth all the extra after hours work, complaints, returns, re-scheduling.
Remember K I S S

But then again, there is that ladder risk.....

williamx

Re: Another one bites the dust
« Reply #22 on: February 21, 2006, 11:34:28 pm »
Rosskesava

I have for the last couple of month been putting some gg3 into my pure water, this I have found has helped get a better clean on some windows which use to be hard to clean.

I have also found that on some really difficult windows I wfp clean them but I then blade them dry, after about 3 or 4 cleans you will find it harder to blade but also there is no need to anyway.

As for the bird poo problem the gg3 I have found helps.

rosskesava

Re: Another one bites the dust
« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2006, 11:46:42 pm »
Hi pj

It's the path we are on. Now for some work and to get the jobs done, we need to use wfp. It when we need to do the job again that I go nuts.

Keep it simple and stupid is what I would have been better to have done a while back. It's to late now as I feel obliged to those I've worked with for 5 years.

Hi williamx

I will try gg3 (or gg4 - what's the difference). How much do you add per 5 gallons or 25ltrs?

Blading them dry is what we done often. I do have to admit the best results with wfp are when we do that. The glass comes up absolutely 100% incredible.

What we've found is that if you leave the glass for a short while so as all the drips have finished doing there dripping, then the results are stunning.

The other thing with blading wfp cleaned windows is that you can blade them when the glass is all but dry. With trad methods if you done that, you'd get smears but with wfp - spotless.

Cheers

williamx

Re: Another one bites the dust
« Reply #24 on: February 22, 2006, 12:07:16 am »
Hi pj

Hi williamx

I will try gg3 (or gg4 - what's the difference). How much do you add per 5 gallons or 25ltrs?

Blading them dry is what we done often. I do have to admit the best results with wfp are when we do that. The glass comes up absolutely 100% incredible.

What we've found is that if you leave the glass for a short while so as all the drips have finished doing there dripping, then the results are stunning.

The other thing with blading wfp cleaned windows is that you can blade them when the glass is all but dry. With trad methods if you done that, you'd get smears but with wfp - spotless.

Cheers

The difference between gg3 and gg4 is that gg3 is for soft water areas and gg4 for hard water areas, as you will be using pure water this then make you a soft water user.

You will have to experiment with the dosage but I have found that 4ml of gg3 to 600 litres of pure water is fine, you will need to check your tds as they do increase with the amount of gg3 you put in, but you can go up to a tds reading of 10 without any harmful effects.

I have also had another thought, because you work on the coast with a very high salt/air content what you could be doing, is when you clean the windows, your brush head become contaminated with the sea salt, and you kept on infecting the glass with it, if this is the case you will need to clean the frames and glass with one brush and then rinse and polish off the glass with a brush head that has a 000 tds reading.

I not sure if this is the case but I do know that you can get a perfect clean, time after time with wfp, I have had problem windows but I have so far I have found solutions to them.

rosskesava

Re: Another one bites the dust
« Reply #25 on: February 22, 2006, 12:34:56 am »
Quote
I have also had another thought, because you work on the coast with a very high salt/air content what you could be doing, is when you clean the windows, your brush head become contaminated with the sea salt, and you kept on infecting the glass with it, if this is the case you will need to clean the frames and glass with one brush and then rinse and polish off the glass with a brush head that has a 000 tds reading.

That is a real worth while thought?

With mop and squeegie, after a few real salty windows, the salt gets on the mop, then you rinse it in the bucket, and then carry on. After a while, you end up cleaning salt off the windows with a salt contaminated mop.....

Some days I can taste it my mouth especially during autumn/winter/spring when the wind comes from the S or SW which is most of the time.

Thanks for that.

That has got me thinking. Problem is that I don't have a record of how near to the coast or how far from it are the problems we have but the windows we done yesterday and today is less then 100yds.

Cheers


brett walker

  • Posts: 1943
Re: Another one bites the dust
« Reply #26 on: February 22, 2006, 08:18:15 am »
Ive not lost one yet, changed another 25 over to wfp last week didnt even get a complaint.  When the customer sees you cleanng with the wfp methord they seem to come out all smiles and say " thats a fancy piece of equipment"  ;)

They think they are getting an extra service free   8)

What puts them off wfp is windows being left wet andwater all down the walls, come summer it wont be as bad.  When you explain all aspects of this methord they seem to come round :D

Spotting -  We all seem to be telling the customer there maybe spots, so this seems to make them go and look for them.  What i have started doing is telling them the windows will dry perfect and if there is any marks its down to me using the equipment as i am just still learning, like when i started with a squeegy.  I tell them just to bear with me a couple of times  8)

If you target 3 storey work and dormas and areas where they cant get a window cleaner they dont bat an eyelid  :)

But at the end of the day if you do a perfect job with wfp or squeegy you will get your moaners  ::)

Brett

Paul Coleman

Re: Another one bites the dust
« Reply #27 on: February 22, 2006, 08:45:26 am »
Ive not lost one yet, changed another 25 over to wfp last week didnt even get a complaint.  When the customer sees you cleanng with the wfp methord they seem to come out all smiles and say " thats a fancy piece of equipment"  ;)

They think they are getting an extra service free   8)

What puts them off wfp is windows being left wet andwater all down the walls, come summer it wont be as bad.  When you explain all aspects of this methord they seem to come round :D

Spotting -  We all seem to be telling the customer there maybe spots, so this seems to make them go and look for them.  What i have started doing is telling them the windows will dry perfect and if there is any marks its down to me using the equipment as i am just still learning, like when i started with a squeegy.  I tell them just to bear with me a couple of times  8)

If you target 3 storey work and dormas and areas where they cant get a window cleaner they dont bat an eyelid  :)

But at the end of the day if you do a perfect job with wfp or squeegy you will get your moaners  ::)

Brett

It's so easy to focus on the negative though isn't it Brett.  Let's face it, on my round maybe 7 or 8 people have had a moan and 250+ haven't   ;D .  That's a 3% moan rate.  Not all have cancelled.  Not all have moaned about quality of work but other side issues instead.

brett walker

  • Posts: 1943
Re: Another one bites the dust
« Reply #28 on: February 22, 2006, 09:15:10 am »
Hi Shinner

youre right wether your wfp or trad if you loose a customer wether it be only 6 quid you always feel gutted, its not so much the money but you take it personally about the quality of your work.  When you know full well youve done a good job and its just the customer having a moan for the sake of it.  With wfp i will be one of the first to say it is very hard after 15yrs trad and there is a learning curve, you only want the customers that are willing to pay a good price and be patient with you while you get the wfp technique right.
There the ones worth doing a good job for
 :)
Brett

Trevor Knight

  • Posts: 1825
Re: Another one bites the dust
« Reply #29 on: February 22, 2006, 12:08:31 pm »
This will make you smile, I clean a customer with WFP the other month, after i had finished he cancelled saying it was just as easy for him to do it with his hose in the garden. Naturally I explained the difference but he was convinced he was right. Anyway, yesterday i cleaned his neighbour and sure enough he had cleaned his windows with a hose from him oputside tap, they were dreadful !!!! I laugh so much I almost fell over, well just as I was finishing he came out and asked if I could give his windows a clean, to which i told him use your hosepipe, its just the same!!! How smug did I feel. I will bring him back on but only after I have milked his pathetic apology a bit more. He even rang my number to leave a message asking me to come back, god i love my job !!
Covering Hampshire, Dorset, Surrey, Berkshire

Ian_Giles

  • Posts: 2987
Re: Another one bites the dust
« Reply #30 on: February 22, 2006, 12:26:12 pm »
As I've said on other threads, I've had very few problems to date with WFP, it's a continuous learning curve, every job has to be assessed for suitability.

Ross's circumstances are fairly unique, though there are sure to be others in coastal towns with similar problems.
The salt air is very obviously a big problem for him; some time ago on the forum there was another window cleaner who had been using WFP almost since it's inception in this country.
He was adamant that the only way you could ensure a top job time after time was to use separate brushes for frames and glass.
Justin Ruggles for instances always insists on having a fresh bucket of pure water and (I think I am right in saying) adding a little GG3 into the water and then regularly cleaning out his brush head throughout the day in this pure water.

The Ionics brushes are single filament, though there are a lot of filaments making them quite dense, nevertheless the single filament aspect will allow them to rid themselves of contaminants far easier than the brushes with 'flocked' bristles such as the....er...the name of them escapes me for the moment :-\
The Salmon brush is also single filament, and not so dense as the Ionics brush, and in all probability is the brush most likely to remain uncontaminated for the longest period of time.

In my own personal opinion (please note the 'personal') contaminated brushes are responsible for leaving windows in a poor condition, or rather, not a tip top condition I should say.
The other day I had to clean a couple of shops on the inside, they only have the insides done every 6 to 8 weeks or so.
Outsides WFP as normal, and I spent that little bit extra care on doing the outsides, obviously I wanted to be sure they were in a tip top condition being as I was going to be cleaning the insides of them a little later in the morning.

That being said, on both of these shops I had to re-do the outsides afterwards, and it vexed me more than a little to have to do so!!
These are also shop fronts that really do come up absolutely mint usually, but not this time >:(
At the first opportunity I went home and cleaned out the brush head thoroughly, to look at the bristles looked spotlessly clean, but for us inland WFP'ers I think that grease, albeit in very minute concentrations gradully builds up on the bristles of the brush.
Pure water will not disolve grease, that takes detergent.
This 'grease' I believe can slowly be picked up through a varietly of ways, greasy fingerprints on windows, someone has thrown a chip onto a window or maybe the entire takeaway :o
Some woman his kissed the window (oh that does annoy me too >:( a lipstick mark is a paiin to get off!)
Other things on the glass that cannot be dissolved by water alone may gradually build up.
Then as we clean our windows with our apparently clean brushes, friction from the bristles on the glass leave behind trace elements of the contaminants on them, drying out and then leaving glass in a not than spotless state.

Anyway; after I had gone home and cleaned out my brush, the rest of the cleans that day were checked very thoroughly indeed and lo and behold, they were gleaming.

As William has said, Ross may well benefit from using 2 brushes and then washing and rinsing them in pure water (with some detergant in them, GG3 etc) several times a day.
Done regularly in a bucket it only takes a moment or two to keep them clean.

That big job in question though is never goingto be ableto be done with WFP. if the paint is coming off the walls then you're stuffed dude :-\
At least done trad, when you have finished you know it is spot on, it might lash with rain and ruin your hard work within a day or two, but at least you'll have the piece of mind that you've done the job properly.
The owners of the building should be told what the problem is though, that is something that should not be happening, something is definitely substandard there ???
Squeaks as usual jumps on anything that suggests that WFP is crap, Ross is always truthful and objective, but his circumstances are pretty extreme, even trad work has to be adapted to suit the particular conditions of his location.

Maybe a hot water system would be better for coastal areas?

I will agree with him about Seagul crap though, that stuff is much harder to get off than other types of bird poo.
The odd outline on anything above 1st floor windows though is acceptable so far as I am concerned.
Ground floor and first floor poo is easy to spot and rectify, the higher you go, the tougher it gets.
But due to H & S the customer is just going to have to put up with minor errors I'm afraid :-\

Ian
Ian. ISM CLEANING SERVICES

Moderator David@stives

  • Posts: 8829
Re: Another one bites the dust
« Reply #31 on: February 22, 2006, 01:50:14 pm »
I would reccommend anyone who is having problems with wfp to go on the bwca wfp course you just might learn where you are going wrong.

It may seem expensive £95 plus a day or 2 off work and the travelling expense.

But you will soon earn back this outlay because you will learn how to overcome problem windows etc allowing you to work quicker and more confidently.

I must say i work by the sea and salt and seagull mess is the bane of my life,as long as you scrub and rinse using copious amounts of water you will not get any problems.

It only takes about 1 min of soaking to remove even the most stubborn seagull mess.

I must stress that if you are not using a monofilament brush head you will be putting dirt back onto the window every time you put the brush on the window.
I never lift to rinse anymore.Sometimes i rinse side to side at the top of the frame .Or rinse using a squeegie motion down the frame without lifting,or simply dont rinse at all if i have scrubbed the glass for longer than usual.

I have not had one complaint as regards to the quality of my work.

Dave

sunshine windows

  • Posts: 2361
Re: Another one bites the dust
« Reply #32 on: February 22, 2006, 02:13:55 pm »
All this debate on the effectiveness of wfp systems is an absolute joy to read.

I am currently domestic trad w/c but would love to invest in one of these systems to expand my round, possibly involving some commercial work.

The amount of helpful information shared between fellow w/c's is extraordinary. I doubt there's another industry where tricks of the trade (so to speak) would be shared without batting an eyelid or parting with a few hard earned pennies.

Anyway, i think after all this debate and the general opinion of those who have gone before me, i will soon be the proud owner of my very own system.

However, i am still having trouble in deciding what system to opt for. So i feel that a bit more research into various products is still needed.

My main reason for placing a post onto this topic was that bird poo and spider web remains were my main cause for doubt in investing my hard earned cash into something that might possibly not do as good a job as trad cleaning methods. But it does appear that providing the system is being used in the correct manner the end results seem to be just as effective.

I do have one question for all you wfp ers out there though. Has anybody bought themselves a system which they thought was a complete and utter pile of s**te and a waste of money. Be honest  :)

Sunshine



To climb mount fuji you must first find a path
(Swindon, Wiltshire)

www.sunshinewindowcleaning.co.uk
www.sunshinesoftwashing.co.uk

Re: Another one bites the dust
« Reply #33 on: February 23, 2006, 04:35:57 pm »
Has anybody bought themselves a system which they thought was a complete and utter pile of s**te and a waste of money. Be honest  :)

Sunshine



Yes, I bought - second hand - a 50 litre system with a small battery and a 60 psi pump.

There wasn't anywhere to mount a hose and it jetted the water out at around 7 litres per minute.

The system looks similar to others I've seen, but I suspect is 'home made'.  It's very similar to a Peter Fogwill trolley; only not as good.

The guy who originally purchased the 50 litre system paid £1200, but this did include two Ionic poles and brushes and a 200 gallon RO/DI.

I've fiddled around with the 50 litre system, and adapted it to take extra-hose, but I prefer my Shurflo back pack.  It's simple but extremely effective.

If anyone wants to buy my 50 litre system; e-mail me; collection only though.  I doubt I could get it through the post!






AuRavelling79

  • Posts: 25392
Re: Another one bites the dust
« Reply #34 on: February 23, 2006, 06:19:01 pm »
Hi Neil

With the bird poo problem - how do you look 2 or 3 floor up with a sometimes bright  blue sky shinning in your eyes, or worse, the sun, and see an outline of bird poo?

I'd love someone to explain this because I can't see it.

From the ground those marks were invisible and that was with 3 sets of eyes trying to see them. what do you do? Use all your water on one house just in case there is any bird whatsits?


If you really are concerned - use a pair of binoculars. I have really done this in the past but don't feel the need now - one year on from starting wfp.
It's a game of three halves!

Paul Coleman

Re: Another one bites the dust
« Reply #35 on: February 23, 2006, 06:31:17 pm »
Hi Neil

With the bird poo problem - how do you look 2 or 3 floor up with a sometimes bright  blue sky shinning in your eyes, or worse, the sun, and see an outline of bird poo?

I'd love someone to explain this because I can't see it.

From the ground those marks were invisible and that was with 3 sets of eyes trying to see them. what do you do? Use all your water on one house just in case there is any bird whatsits?


If you really are concerned - use a pair of binoculars. I have really done this in the past but don't feel the need now - one year on from starting wfp.

Maybe this thread should be called "How to get yourself arrested by staring up at peoples bedroom windows with binoculars"

dai

  • Posts: 3503
Re: Another one bites the dust
« Reply #36 on: February 23, 2006, 08:47:54 pm »
I too live in a coastal area, most of my work being in the Llandudno area. I have lost work because of WFP but on only one occasion was it down to dirty glass, and that was on my first day. I do mostly tops only and the bottoms trad.
Now I do one job, "The Mulberry" on Conwy marina every fortnight, inside and out.
The results on the outside are perfect.
I do my own house about every 3 months. I have seen some spotting when doing this. The thing is, I am not getting any complaints from customers. Well I did have one, that was because their was a bloom left on the glass and she cancelled. I didn't get to inspect the job. My guess is that the bloom was on the inside, and down to her 30 a day smoking habit. Dai

sunshine windows

  • Posts: 2361
Re: Another one bites the dust
« Reply #37 on: February 23, 2006, 08:53:49 pm »
Quote
    I do my own house about every 3 months. I have seen some spotting when doing this. The thing is, I am not getting any complaints from customers. Well I did have one, that was because their was a bloom left on the glass and she cancelled. I didn't get to inspect the job. My guess is that the bloom was on the inside, and down to her 30 a day smoking habit. Dai       

What exactly do you mean by a bloom Dai?????

Sunshine
To climb mount fuji you must first find a path
(Swindon, Wiltshire)

www.sunshinewindowcleaning.co.uk
www.sunshinesoftwashing.co.uk

DASERVICES

Re: Another one bites the dust
« Reply #38 on: February 23, 2006, 08:58:36 pm »
I.

I must stress that if you are not using a monofilament brush head you will be putting dirt back onto the window every time you put the brush on the window.
I never lift to rinse anymore.Sometimes i rinse side to side at the top of the frame .Or rinse using a squeegie motion down the frame without lifting,or simply dont rinse at all if i have scrubbed the glass for longer than usual.


Dave


Dave what's a monofilament brush, who makes them.

Cheers

Doug

H h20

Re: Another one bites the dust
« Reply #39 on: February 23, 2006, 09:19:58 pm »
I.

I must stress that if you are not using a monofilament brush head you will be putting dirt back onto the window every time you put the brush on the window.
I never lift to rinse anymore.Sometimes i rinse side to side at the top of the frame .Or rinse using a squeegie motion down the frame without lifting,or simply dont rinse at all if i have scrubbed the glass for longer than usual.


Dave


Dave what's a monofilament brush, who makes them.

Cheers

Doug
Dave monofilament means it is an extremely smooth none-porous surface,heres the brushes i supply,also avaliable in Red,green or yellow,Gaz