[bradboy]

to the mod who deleted my posting, i am not now or ever will be a racist, i am however a realist, the post was the truth and i can take you to the factory in question to prove my point, if you wish to visit please let me know, as for my coment i stand by it, and will speak my mind, unlike some people, who hide what they realy think, so i say, STAND UP FOR WHAT IS YOURS

[concept]

STAND UP FOR WHAT IS YOURS

What do you mean by that?

[ben M]

Migration Watch UK, which campaigns for tougher controls on immigration, estimates 250,000 Romanians and Bulgarians will move to the UK in the first five years after access restrictions are lifted.

that mean from the 1st january 2014

[formb]

Mod Note: Please do not post silly overgeneralised racist comments on the forum. 

Mod Note: Please do not post silly overgeneralised racist comments on the forum. 

I want to know what these posts were now.  

Too slow.  

[ben M]

Mod Note: Please do not post silly overgeneralised racist comments on the forum. 

Mod Note: Please do not post silly overgeneralised racist comments on the forum. 

I want to know what these posts were now.  

Too slow.  

ask tosh....

[Viktor]

The danger is, once they (and others in their community) see how easy it is to be a self-employed window cleaner they'll simply start up on their own charging half the going rate.  Could you compete with that?  Most couldn't.  But they will be happy with it, becuase it's more money than they could ever earn working for someone.

I am an Eastern European and never thought of charging half the price for what I would normally charge !!!

I take over a lot of work from other window cleaners - that's true. and most of them are charged even higher then they used to be charge. a lot of time my service has been chosen, because I have right equipment and try to do a good job. Have good recommendations

 

[Perfect Windows]

Migration Watch UK, which campaigns for tougher controls on immigration, estimates 250,000 Romanians and Bulgarians will move to the UK in the first five years after access restrictions are lifted.

that mean from the 1st january 2014

On what basis do they estimate that?  Where is the raw data?  Why are Migrationwatch, a pressure group with an anti-immigration agenda, routinely quoted in the press as some kind of independent group?

Vin

[Pete Thompson]

Why on earth would they do that?

They ARE doing that.

In London certain areas have been canvassed by what my mate said were "eastern european boys who are ferocious undercutters"

Most customers have a good degree of loyalty, but when offered to pay £25 for a service they were paying £50 for, well loyalty only stretches so far.

His exact words to me were they live 10 to a house, so have hardly any living expenses, and they send the money back to the family in Poland.

Its not about whether or not they will do it, they ARE doing it, right now.

[Viktor]

Why on earth would they do that?

They ARE doing that.

In London certain areas have been canvassed by what my mate said were "eastern european boys who are ferocious undercutters"

Most customers have a good degree of loyalty, but when offered to pay £25 for a service they were paying £50 for, well loyalty only stretches so far.

His exact words to me were they live 10 to a house, so have hardly any living expenses, and they send the money back to the family in Poland.

Its not about whether or not they will do it, they ARE doing it, right now.

To run competitive business you have to always invest in equipment, motor, tools, marketing.
If they charge £25 for what use to be £50 and can meet all of the above, then it's just competition, no matter where you are from.
if they just few guys with a ladder and a bucket and managed to get that job by undercutting, they will not be able to survive long.

Do not listen to every one. 
Few local window cleaner probably are saying same about me now.
 On Monday had 3 new jobs in newly built estate, they all had arrangements with other window cleaners. all charged at £20-£23 and after I asked how much they used to be charged answer was £30-£35. Good on those window cleaners who charge this price and have a full round, but for 20-30min work I will be ok with £20 and I think thats a fair price.
and now they tell they friends "that eastern European is ruining the market..." 

[Tom White]

Mod Note: Please do not post silly overgeneralised racist comments on the forum. 

Mod Note: Please do not post silly overgeneralised racist comments on the forum. 

I want to know what these posts were now.  

Too slow.  

ask tosh....

I can't remember.  We've got deletion logs somewhere, but I can't be bothered to find them.  Some of the posts I delete are posted by people who if they were to get any stupider, their Mummies would have to water them twice a week.

[robertphil]

mine was just saying that generally they take take but don't give

, now before that gets struck off you tell me of a foreign window cleaner that has GIVEN  away a job  without an ulterior motive

 that's reminded me ,I gave a decent job away on this forum to a Eastie that job was out my area by a bit  and the decent thing would be to give summat/a gesture  in return,a lead or praps a beer  ,but oh no, that isn't their way in my experience

[Pete Thompson]

On Monday had 3 new jobs in newly built estate, they all had arrangements with other window cleaners. all charged at £20-£23 and after I asked how much they used to be charged answer was £30-£35. Good on those window cleaners who charge this price and have a full round, but for 20-30min work I will be ok with £20 and I think thats a fair price.
and now they tell they friends "that eastern European is ruining the market..."

So you came along and undercutted them.

You might think that's fair, but I would say that is you ruining the market, and devalueing the whole trade. 

Haven't you done exactly what my mate in London said?  He said that the eastern european lads are happy with less money.

And to those who think this is all fine and dandy, learn to live with half your income and see if you're still so open minded about the free movement of people in europe.

No offense, but this is the reason I'll probably be voting UKIP next time.

[formb]

all charged at £20-£23 and after I asked how much they used to be charged answer was £30-£35. Good on those window cleaners who charge this price and have a full round, but for 20-30min work I will be ok with £20 and I think thats a fair price.

You are just proving his point. Those people are willing to pay £30 why not charge £30.

Because £30 is more than £20.

[Viktor]

You are just proving his point. Those people are willing to pay £30 why not charge £30.

Because £30 is more than £20.

I did not undercut them as if I knew the price first and offered to clean them for less , I was working on the estate and gave my price to those people without knowing what they have been offered before.
They did not have they windows cleaned before, they only had window cleaner arranged as it was a new build houses and they have just moved in.
Company was hiring me to do a first clean for all newly build houses, as nice gesture for new owners.
I have made first cleans and then left my offer if they wanted to have they windows cleaned regular.

I clean 10-12 houses in the estate average price £20, average cleaning time 20-30 min per house and you are saying that I "eastern European" ruining the market of window cleaning by charging  "very cheep" prices.

While average earning in the estate £40-£60/h

If that's what you think then I give no damn to that. Someone can charge £150 to clean house and they are willing to pay,
if that can be done for £30, and that brings earnings of £40-£60/h then perhaps you need to be more business minded and less window cleaner minded

[Viktor]

I do understand your point if some one was cleaning windows for £6-£10/h and was undercutting everyone in their way, that would be ruining the market.

but that wont happen as they would not last long, or they would be limited to they small round as business needs profit to grow.

[g.brookes]

none of us have any choice where we are born.  its is complete fluke whether you are english or polish or spanish or whatever.  The Uk relies on immigration.  Very very few of you could trace your lineage back and see you based in the UK the entire time.
All i am sensing is an incredible amount of unwarranted fear, generally used to sell certain newspapers.
Polish immigrants arent a new thing, they have been coming to the country for years.  Yet the average price for window cleaning keeps rising.
It seems this debate is still coming down to a group of people who seem to think you can judge a person based on their nationality (xenophobia, not racism) which is utterly stupid.  Its no different from saying all staffordshire bull terriers are nasty dogs that bite children.  Theyre not, it depends on how they are raised. Judge each individual on what they are- an individual.  Theres plenty of awful people that have a British passport but it doesnt make me a bad person does it?

[robertphil]

right now its on to Staffys ,of which I own one. a lovely dog but the truth is they ARE very dangerous, once my old girl dies id never get another and anybody who says they own a "soft as lights" staffy is kidding themselves

its like saying you own a 12 guage shotgun with a hair trigger

 whats the gods honest truth is that the sort of blokes who look for work as window cleaners on the payroll  often are desperados ,nowt wrong with that, im proud to be a bit desperate , but when you combine that with immigration you get an unpredictable breed of personality .
  let me also remind im not the slightest bit racist, buy Lithuanian beer often AND East euro food takeaways ,follow basketball over there and my bro is half french by marriage ,no end of other foreign stuff that Im sure will also come to me but not at this minute .

[Pete Thompson]

I did not undercut them as if I knew the price first and offered to clean them for less

But you still charged MUCH less than the going rate locally, and this is the problem.  You were happy with that amount and as you said you "give no damn" what the effect on other window cleaners is.

If that's what you think then I give no damn to that. Someone can charge £150 to clean house and they are willing to pay, if that can be done for £30, and that brings earnings of £40-£60/h then perhaps you need to be more business minded and less window cleaner minded

So what you are saying is that the way for us to compete with cheaper workers from eastern europe is to lower our prices.  Well this is exactly the problem as I was describing it, and you have quite clearly confirmed that is what is happening even with you.  When I said about ferocious undercutters, some on here said "they won't do that!"  Well, hate to say I told you so but there it is from the horses mouth.

An influx of cheap labour causes prices to fall and the whole window cleaning industry suffers.  It doesn't take a genius to see that this is an obvious result.

And before anyone accuses me of racism, you honestly couldn't be more wrong.  I don't for a second blame you, or anyone else from eastern europe for coming to this country and entirely legally earning a living and improving the lives of you and your family.  If I were in your shoes I'm sure I'd be doing the same in a heartbeat.  

The blame is with our idiot government that has exposed our labour market to this problem.

It seems this debate is still coming down to a group of people who seem to think you can judge a person based on their nationality

Not right at all, and in my view its utterly irresponsible to try to silence legitimate concerns about immigration with accusations of xenophobia, that's what the labour government did for over a decade and only now have finally admitted they didn't do enough about immigration.

[Viktor]

So what you are saying is that the way for us to compete with cheaper workers from eastern europe is to lower our prices.

My average prices are higher then most of local window cleaners in the area !

I think you are misunderstanding what I have tried to say.


conception of eastern European might be wrong just because you listen to a friend's friend who lost a job to an eastern European.
I have lost £13 jobs, because someone have undercut me, and that was a local English window cleaner.

[Viktor]

right now its on to Staffys ,of which I own one. a lovely dog but the truth is they ARE very dangerous, once my old girl dies id never get another and anybody who says they own a "soft as lights" staffy is kidding themselves

its like saying you own a 12 guage shotgun with a hair trigger

 whats the gods honest truth is that the sort of blokes who look for work as window cleaners on the payroll  often are desperados ,nowt wrong with that, im proud to be a bit desperate , but when you combine that with immigration you get an unpredictable breed of personality .
  let me also remind im not the slightest bit racist, buy Lithuanian beer often AND East euro food takeaways ,follow basketball over there and my bro is half french by marriage ,no end of other foreign stuff that Im sure will also come to me but not at this minute .