[greg2040]

I am hoping someone can help me out. I run a small cleaning business and at the moment we have a waiting list of customers but just cant seem to get the cleaners. Maybe we are being too picky?

We advertise on the job seakers website, gumtree and a few others. We get a fair few applications (about 40 per job) but the quality of the applicants is just rubbish.

The cleaners are self employed which may put some off but we do allow them to pick and chose the days and hours they want to work. They get paid on the day of the clean at between £7.50 - £9ph. We keep all of the customers local so there is minimal travel time.

Ideally all we really want is someone who has good comunication skills, aged around 30 - 50,  has transport and actually answers the phone after submitting an application. Is this too much to ask?

Am I asking for trouble by advertising in the areas I am? Has anyone got a large cleaning agency who can point me in the right direction of finding half descent applicants?

Thanks in advance. 

[Griffus]

If you're getting 40 genuine applicants per vacancy and can't filter this down to at least one that's suitable, and this is always the case then you are either being unrealistic in your expectations or lack recruitment, and in particular, interview skills.

How do you know that all those applying are 'rubbish'. To what lengths have you gone to in order to be able to state this as a fact?

I'm not saying that finding good cleaners is easy, far from it. Your starting point is to know exactly what you want and the word your vacancy accordingly.

Why are you pushing for self employed?

Finally, how do you think that your interviewees perceive you and your company? Are you a company that seems attractive to work for?

Remember, recruitment is a two way street.

[greg2040]

Hi Ian

Thanks for your reply. You may be right that we lack interview skills but our interviews do have structure to them but importantly we just want cleaners that we would be happy to introduce to our customers.

We have a fairly detailed application on our website however get loads of applications which just ignore this and send us an email some as short as "I saw ur job on JS website and want to apply". We got some which are hardly completed, a lot of applicants with previous criminal convictions... the list goes on. Of the few good ones there are they seem to either submit the application and then not answer their phone or take jobs elsewhere.

Our vacancy wording is in my opinion very clear. It states it is a self employed position, states the pay and states the cleaners can choose the hours they would like to work. It states the areas they will need to cover and basic requirements.

We have chosen self employed cleaners for a number or reasons. Mainly by structuring our business model in this way we can offer our service at a competitive price. Most cleaners will not hit the threshold for tax anyway although obviously will still have to complete the self assesment.

It is hard to say how candidates perceive our company. We are uniformed, have a good website, signwritten van and I guess at that stage that is all they will know about us. We are the only company in the area that fits customers in with our cleaners schedule, most other cleaning jobs are minimum wage so we are offering more. I would have thought we would have had our pick of the bunch.

My only conclusion is that it could be people applying to get a stamp in their JSA book who dont actually want to work. We are trying to get the local school to allow us to advertise the vacancy by the classroms so parents thinking of getting back into work may be interested. I fully agree that recruitment is a 2 way street so anything else we can do to make it more appealing (bar increasing the wage as we work on small margins as it is) I would be interested to hear your sugestions.

Any other thoughts would be much appreciated.

Thanks again
Greg

[Green Clean Direct]

I agree it is hard finding suitable people for cleaning jobs but I wonder why you stick with the self employed mantra ?

Few cleaning jobs actually pass HMRC's guidelines of true self employment and candidates are wary of self employed jobs, believing that an employed position is somehow more secure.

The other thing is your asking for them to provide their own transport and insurances. To be legally compliant, they would, as self employed, be required by your insurance company to maintain public liability insurance of their own at least as comprehensive as yours and for their transport, to have a valid MOT, tax and business insurance. For £7.50 to £9.00 an hour that is asking quite a lot.

If you put two people on full time, would the numbers not work for you to provide transport ?

[Griffus]

I agree it is hard finding suitable people for cleaning jobs but I wonder why you stick with the self employed mantra ?

Few cleaning jobs actually pass HMRC's guidelines of true self employment and candidates are wary of self employed jobs, believing that an employed position is somehow more secure.

The other thing is your asking for them to provide their own transport and insurances. To be legally compliant, they would, as self employed, be required by your insurance company to maintain public liability insurance of their own at least as comprehensive as yours and for their transport, to have a valid MOT, tax and business insurance. For £7.50 to £9.00 an hour that is asking quite a lot.

If you put two people on full time, would the numbers not work for you to provide transport ?

We also use self employed, although not too often. When working for us they are classed as 'labour only' and are covered by our liability insurances. I would assume this is the same accross the board, although def best to double check with your own insurer.

As for transport, you do have a duty of care to ensure essential things in respect of any motor vehicle used in the course of your business. This includes checking the driver has a current full UK or equivalent driving licence, the car is road-worthy (this is of course subjective and you are unlikely to be an expert, but it's just a common sense check), MOT, RFL and Insurance are up to date and insurance is relevant to type of use. You are not liable to pay for any of this, just to ensure they are in place.

As for hourly rate, £7.50 is def bottom end for self employed. This equates to approx £6.40 employed, but without any of the security.

One last point, to be officially self employed they can't only work for you.

[Green Clean Direct]

...One last point, to be officially self employed they can't only work for you.

You can't stop them working elsewhere but neither can you ensure that they have or indeed want additional work.

I wonder how many employers have non competition clauses in their contracts or similar which could leave them open to claims of employing disguised employees.

I worry more about workers asking to be self employed, thinking about benefit fraud and all the insurance elements which they have to confirm to as bona fide sub contractors.

[greg2040]

Thanks for all the replies so far. I do agree that maybe people are a little suspicious about "self employed" roles. In essence it actually gives them more stability than an employed position. If they have 10 clients to service it is unlikley all 10 will get rid of them. If they are employed and the employer is not happy then its bye bye to all of their income.

I am very reluctant to employ anyone. For the small margins we have I wouldnt want to be responsable for sick pay, holiday entitlement, maternity leave, redundancy pay etc etc. Also the additional paperwork this will surely involve doesnt sound too fun. Also you tend to find self employed people dont have much time off work whist those who are employed call in sick a lot more. 

Whilst nothing with HMRC is guarenteed we have invested heavily in understanding and finding the right way to run and structure the business so it hopefully should be deemed to be self employed positions should HMRC come knocking. Also our insurance policy covers our cleaners so as far as I am aware they dont need their own policy (please correct me if I am wrong). We got the insurance policy designed for us around our model, it is not an over the shelf policy.

I appreciate £7.50 is not a huge amount but then most cleaning jobs are circa minimum wage. Add to that the complete flexability we offer which others dont and surely its a good option for say a mum whilst kids are at school.

with regards to transport most cleaners do 1 or 2 jobs a day. All the jobs are very close to where they live (a 5 minute drive would be a good average). If they worked for someone else they would need to drive to work anyway so does this point really cause an issue? Also I never realised we would need to make sure their transport is up to scratch. Is this true as it sounds a little wierd to me. On any position I have done before employed I have never been asked if my car is legal to be on the road. Surely the rules wouldnt be any stricter for a self employed person?

Thanks again :-)

[Griffus]

...One last point, to be officially self employed they can't only work for you.

You can't stop them working elsewhere but neither can you ensure that they have or indeed want additional work.

I wonder how many employers have non competition clauses in their contracts or similar which could leave them open to claims of employing disguised employees.

I worry more about workers asking to be self employed, thinking about benefit fraud and all the insurance elements which they have to confirm to as bona fide sub contractors.

Not what I said.

[Griffus]

It's the business use aspect where your duty of care lies, not in them travelling to and from a place of work. The difference is you are making it an essential part and thus have to put systems / procedures in place. This is your duty of care.

Don't forget, mileage allowance also applies, although it is up to you whether you pay this in full or in part and claim back from HMRC or pass onto those working for you.

Self employed just claim back from HMRC.

[Gray1]

I agree it is hard finding suitable people for cleaning jobs but I wonder why you stick with the self employed mantra ?

Few cleaning jobs actually pass HMRC's guidelines of true self employment and candidates are wary of self employed jobs, believing that an employed position is somehow more secure.

The other thing is your asking for them to provide their own transport and insurances. To be legally compliant, they would, as self employed, be required by your insurance company to maintain public liability insurance of their own at least as comprehensive as yours and for their transport, to have a valid MOT, tax and business insurance. For £7.50 to £9.00 an hour that is asking quite a lot.


Self employed minefield.  If they fill in their self assesment next year and you are the only source of income then they are deemed to be employed by you.
If you put two people on full time, would the numbers not work for you to provide transport ?

We also use self employed, although not too often. When working for us they are classed as 'labour only' and are covered by our liability insurances. I would assume this is the same accross the board, although def best to double check with your own insurer.

As for transport, you do have a duty of care to ensure essential things in respect of any motor vehicle used in the course of your business. This includes checking the driver has a current full UK or equivalent driving licence, the car is road-worthy (this is of course subjective and you are unlikely to be an expert, but it's just a common sense check), MOT, RFL and Insurance are up to date and insurance is relevant to type of use. You are not liable to pay for any of this, just to ensure they are in place.

As for hourly rate, £7.50 is def bottom end for self employed. This equates to approx £6.40 employed, but without any of the security.

One last point, to be officially self employed they can't only work for you.

[Green Clean Direct]

Thanks for all the replies so far. I do agree that maybe people are a little suspicious about "self employed" roles. In essence it actually gives them more stability than an employed position. If they have 10 clients to service it is unlikley all 10 will get rid of them. If they are employed and the employer is not happy then its bye bye to all of their income.

I am very reluctant to employ anyone. For the small margins we have I wouldnt want to be responsable for sick pay, holiday entitlement, maternity leave, redundancy pay etc etc. Also the additional paperwork this will surely involve doesnt sound too fun. Also you tend to find self employed people dont have much time off work whist those who are employed call in sick a lot more. 

Whilst nothing with HMRC is guarenteed we have invested heavily in understanding and finding the right way to run and structure the business so it hopefully should be deemed to be self employed positions should HMRC come knocking. Also our insurance policy covers our cleaners so as far as I am aware they dont need their own policy (please correct me if I am wrong). We got the insurance policy designed for us around our model, it is not an over the shelf policy.

I appreciate £7.50 is not a huge amount but then most cleaning jobs are circa minimum wage. Add to that the complete flexability we offer which others dont and surely its a good option for say a mum whilst kids are at school.

with regards to transport most cleaners do 1 or 2 jobs a day. All the jobs are very close to where they live (a 5 minute drive would be a good average). If they worked for someone else they would need to drive to work anyway so does this point really cause an issue? Also I never realised we would need to make sure their transport is up to scratch. Is this true as it sounds a little wierd to me. On any position I have done before employed I have never been asked if my car is legal to be on the road. Surely the rules wouldnt be any stricter for a self employed person?

Thanks again :-)

Again, your not wanting "to be responsable for sick pay, holiday entitlement, maternity leave, redundancy pay etc etc. Also the additional paperwork this will surely involve doesnt sound too fun" won't cut the ice with HMRC and neither will the thinness of your margins. If you are confident that HMRC will view it one way and not another then fine but thatissue aside, I'd be incredibly worried if my margins were so thin that I had to walk that tightrope or indeed that thin per se.

As to your insurance, I would check whether your policy is covering what are termed labour only sub contractors as opposed to bona fide sub contractors. Insurers usually make a distinction and it would be unusual for your policy to cover real contractors. The covering of labour only sub contractors is usually the same as employees, though often limited to a percentage of turnover or salaries etc.

You are totally right that decent cleaning jobs provide decent incomes for otherwise non working mums. I know it helped me to understand their motivation when I researched Tax Credits and other benefits and I suspect at least an understanding of the basics of this new universal credit will stand us in good stead when looking at how best to remunerate part time employees.

[Aashishtanveer]

Mainly because of the increase of cheap services,so it's become hard to get a good cleaner.

[dmckellar]

if your margins are that thin that you can't afford to do things properly - i'd ditch those contracts and just work harder yourself.  you'll end up same off, if not better off than trying hard to push for £1 an hour after expenses