[Philip Hanson]

The problem is that the definition of what
is "safe" depends on your point of view.

Some window cleaners would think nothing of
driving around with an unsecured, unbaffled
tank in their van, they might consider that to
be "safe".  While other window cleaners would
not consider that to be "Safe"

Who is right? 
The answer depends on who you speak to.

I must say, very Brave of you Andrew
to boldly bring this issue out using that
chap's system as an example.  Only by people
doing this will safety in this industry finally be
taken seriously.  Personally I think you were
right to name & shame, and I hope that it gets
resolved quickly for you.

Most window cleaners would probably think
that as long as a system has been installed
by a WFP supplier (rather than DIY job) it is
safe.  But recently a major UK pole supplier
was ordered by the Advertising Standards
Authority to remove the claim "AND IT'S SAFE!"
from their advertising.  Why?
"Because the advertisers had not provided
evidence to show that their particular mobile
water tank system was safe"

See it HERE
(you might have to click it twice to get to the page)

Astonishingly, this supplier in response to the
ASA action said "they had decided to crash
test their system in future".

Now, lets not underestimate the importance
of this news.  So far only one manufacturer has
crash-tested their systems, and with some notable
exceptions, other suppliers have responded, not by
doing the same, but rather by playing down the
risks, and caling the this issue a gimmick.

Now, a WFP supplier who is obviously taking the
safety issue seriously... at last.  They have also
identified that the only way you can make any
safety claim is on the basis of EVIDENCE, and
that can only come from testing.  HOORAY for
this supplier...But wait a minute

This was said in April of 2005, and the supplier
still hasn't started a crash-test program.  Also, their
website says

"We would like to emphasise that due to the
techniques employed, the precautions taken and
the advice sort, we have no concerns about any
tank we have ever fitted."

The question, then, must be asked:  If there
are "no concerns" about any tank they have ever
fitted, why did they tell the ASA that they had decided
to crash-test?

Are they really going to test their systems? 
Why would they say so if it were not a serious
concern for them?

Important questions, I will make sure that they
get asked, and you should do the same, (eg at windex).
It is window cleaners who are being put at risk, and we
have a right to know what suppliers are doing
about those risks.

The issue of safety with WFP systems is simply not
getting the attention it deserves.  With more and
more WFP "suppliers" popping up and cobbling together
systems (Just like this one Andrew has highlighted) in
an illegal and dangerous way, unless window cleaners
start to demand safe systems, I think that it will take
blood being spilled before suppliers take our safety
as seriously as they take their profits.

When someone finally is killed (and I think with
the popularity of WFP now, its only a matter of time)
the families will look around for who is to blame.  Will
the suppliers be able to say they weren't aware
of the risks?

-Philip

[timdiv]

So is Dino the same person as dinovarious? because he's not the one selling the VW.I'm interested in this thread as I think I might know the person who is selling the VW.

[Pole2pole]

na mate, same name ish, different bloke. I'm a trolley n a backpack man. All that van mounted stuff goes way over my head. I'm as honest as the day is long 

[24-7 S C Services]

Hi Everyone,

I thought i would share the latest email i have had with you all. Now this has not come from the first fella, but someone else. Tell me what you think..

Hi I am unhappy about how you are conducting yourself and have looked at your comments about another member. I have shown my Uncle your item and I am a little concerned with who i am dealing with since you have blatantly SLANDERED another individual which then becomes a Legal matter. I have contacted Dinovarious who on my Uncles advice has contacted a City Solicitor to act on his behalf due to the serious nature of your Slander. I am a little disappointed since i thought we could do business. Dino has been very forthcoming and accommodating and I am now doing business with him after having met up with him today. The fact you have been evasive in not contacting a prospective client speaks volumes for the kind of individual you are and i have contacted Ebay. Slander is a very serious matter and i believe its in your best interests to pay a very very expensive Solicitor to help you when Dinovarious' Solicitor sues you for your comments. All the best John

[poles apart]

Well at least he said 'all the best'. can't be that bad!

[Helen]

Quality.
Everyone on here and CP's think this guy is doing dodgie wfp kit but he thinks 24/7 and everyone else is wrong.
I'm going to be buying the Telegraph evryday from now till 2008 for the outcome.
Any odds going on who's right?

[rosskesava]

I don't get the slander bit. I don't remember reading anything that could be called slander?

And he's got 'a City Solicitor'....

And an expensive one.....

I would think if someone takes legal action for slander the first thing the solicitor says is not to contact the person who did the slandering.

Obviously as it's so serious, this'll make national headlines in 10 years time....

I think it's a load of hot air.

[neil100]

Tomcat.

Looking at your small pic of your van. I have a comment to make that I hope you dont take the wrong way. But I would be very concerned the way they have installed the tank. They have installed it over the rear axle. You said its a 650ltr tank. You also have  a mobile Ro installed.

Are you aware that their is an axle weight limit that is a lot lower then the max gross weight. If you position the tank at the rear of the vehicle,like in the pic I am 99% sure you are breaking the law.

I know of someone who was fined £2000.00 by the police because he was over the axle weight, and his van was under the gross weight. He was carrying 4 x 25 ltr containers of water for somebody and he placed them at the back of the van, the police said had he put them behind the seats so that they were further forward he would of been ok.

I looked at the expert and the gross weight for the 1.9d is currently 851kg. For the 2.0 HDI its 925 kg. I worked my weights out and the max tank I would of fitted is 500ltr for the 851kg payload, and that was Di only.

If you take fuel and one person clothed= 100kg
                                                    Water = 650kg
                                                    Tank   =   50kg
                                            RO System  = 100kg
                                             Ply Linning =   10 kg

Thats  910kg with no passengers, No lunch , No poles, No hoses filled with water, No reels, No clothes Etc . and only a third of a tank of Diesel.

Hope you dont mind me mentioning it but if you were ever in a serious accident and the police investigated you could be in a lot of trouble while risking a very heavy fine if the police ever pull you over.

Nel.

[dish]

Hi Andrew

You already have a bidder so who cares about this mystery person called John.

Do you have the contact details of 'john' from his email?  

Who is this prospective client he talks of?

Why would some stranger want to get involved?  I doubt they would.

I would suspect that he is a friend of the ebayer, or the ebayer using a different email address to intimidate you.

I have read your ebay comments -  oohh - you are a hard man.  

If you do have emails from the original ebayer with his details on and they are malicious, I would imagine that you could take proceedings against him.  

However even if your comments are slanderous I doubt that he would get involved in a very costly legal battle if he could avoid it.

[neil100]

I would take if with a pinch of salt Andrew.

If they had gone to a solicter, They would of been adviced not to contact you.

The fact that they have contacted you shows they are out of their depth. You only contact a solicter if you have very deep pockets and a cast iron case.

You have Ruffled their feathers well and truly.

Regards Nel.

[mark dew]

hiya andrew, i don't mean to make light of this and you have been very helpful to myself and many others but this sounds like a storm in a teacup.
Threats and counter threats. It does sound like a spat to have in the playground.
At £100 p/h is it worth getting a solicitor involved. Especially if he's of the same thinking. I doubt he could successfully sue you anyway.
Though i haven't read your comments word for word, from your earlier post it doesn't seem likely.
I understand your concerns about someone torching your van but you can still let people view it safely by meeting viewers of your van at a very different location to the one you live.
Go with a mate (or several) if worried about any potential viewing.
You sell your van and save solicitors fees. Job done.
I know this sounds simplistic mate but it seems like you want 2 things:
1. To warn people about safety
2. To sell your van(s)

The rest sounds like a clash of ego's.
Sorry if i have missed the point, mate. It isn't meant as a knock either. Just trying to give a different view from what's been said.
I wish you all the best with this and everything else.

mark

[24-7 S C Services]

Hi Everyone,

I have the same opinion that it is him under a different user name and or a friend of his.

Although I have received 3 emails from him (I suppose this one would be 4). I only ever answered his first email and in no way did I slander him.

The email I posted above was received today (all these emails have been sent internally on eBay, so I don’t have their proper email addresses. The same person contacted me yesterday, insisting me to phone him to discuss the sale, but he would not be willing to answer withheld numbers), I sent him a message back, saying if he had a question, he must use the mailing system supplied by eBay, which he failed to do until today.

Luckily for me, I can afford solicitors and spent an hour on the phone last night to one, so I am in no way worried.

The main part of this thread was to find this persons contact details, but also to warn people about this eBay user and his methods. It was also brought to my attention; he has used similar tactics on another window cleaner.

Many Thanks

Andrew

[rosskesava]

Hi Philip

I've just re read your posting.

Last year one of the others I work with dropped a 5 full gallon barrel on his foot and broke 2 bones. God knows what an unsecured 1000 lts would in a 60mph crunch.

I'm thinking in terms of buying a ready kitted van later this year.

How would I know if what I'm buying has been tested/approved/certificated etc?

Cheers

[Moderator David@stives]

Ross there is only one crash tested system out at the moment and that is ionic and there sister company pure2o.

Although a few of the other manufacturers are very experienced in fitting systems competently.

namely Brodex ,omnipole and tuckerpole .


http://www.ionicsystems.com/english/index.html

[poleman]

As the law stands WFP systems don’t have to be crash tested, and don’t for get carpet cleaners have been using truck mount systems for many years.

BUT as a industry any system fitted should be install by a competent mechanic at the very least, you have taken you time to change over to a safer way of cleaning last thing you wont is to be crushed to death       

Andy

[timdiv]

Tomcat.

Looking at your small pic of your van. I have a comment to make that I hope you dont take the wrong way. But I would be very concerned the way they have installed the tank. They have installed it over the rear axle. You said its a 650ltr tank. You also have  a mobile Ro installed.

Are you aware that their is an axle weight limit that is a lot lower then the max gross weight. If you position the tank at the rear of the vehicle,like in the pic I am 99% sure you are breaking the law.

I know of someone who was fined £2000.00 by the police because he was over the axle weight, and his van was under the gross weight. He was carrying 4 x 25 ltr containers of water for somebody and he placed them at the back of the van, the police said had he put them behind the seats so that they were further forward he would of been ok.

I looked at the expert and the gross weight for the 1.9d is currently 851kg. For the 2.0 HDI its 925 kg. I worked my weights out and the max tank I would of fitted is 500ltr for the 851kg payload, and that was Di only.

If you take fuel and one person clothed= 100kg
                                                   Water = 650kg
                                                   Tank   =   50kg
                                           RO System  = 100kg
                                            Ply Linning =   10 kg

Thats  910kg with no passengers, No lunch , No poles, No hoses filled with water, No reels, No clothes Etc . and only a third of a tank of Diesel.

Hope you dont mind me mentioning it but if you were ever in a serious accident and the police investigated you could be in a lot of trouble while risking a very heavy fine if the police ever pull you over.

Nel.


Nel

Thanks for the advice.

Although it is a baffle tank and securely bolted to the chassis with 7 bolts it drives fine even when full. However it does sit very low on the rear axle and as you say it could be dangerous.

I'm meeting up with Denis from waterfedpolesystems who fitted the system to find out how much it would cost to move the tank to the middle of the van because what you have said has already been on my mind. DO you think it would be legal if it was in center of van? Also I have only been filling it completely if I'm working round the corner otherwise I have only been putting about 500 litres

[neil100]

Tomcat.

You cannot presume your under the weight limit because your van drives ok. If its over the max gross weight you are putting the suspension, brakes under extra stress to deal with a weight they were not designed for.

My best mate whos a police seargent told me when i was getting my van system to make sure I allways stayed within the Gross weight because the Police will absoultley clobber you with a big fine if you are ever caught. No warnings they hit you were it hurts and thats in the wallet. £2000.00 are common for overweight vehicles.

I am attaching a couple of pics of my van. Its an 800ltr tank but you can see were the engineer as positioned the van. I know my van when fully loaded with water drives better then when I bought it, and it had nothing in the back.

Phill at Facelift builds his own frames and fits them himself. My freind as an Expert van  with a 400ltr tank  which is fitted behind the seats.

I think who ever fitted the tank for you has made the error and should be willing to reposition the tank free of charge as a matter of proffesional courtesy whilst staying within the legalty of the law.

[rosskesava]

Thanks Dave.

That's what I thought.

Ionics it will be then.

Cheers

[Philip Hanson]

Hi Philip

I've just re read your posting.

Last year one of the others I work with dropped a 5
full gallon barrel on his foot and broke 2 bones. God
knows what an unsecured 1000 lts would in a 60mph crunch.

I'm thinking in terms of buying a ready kitted van later
this year.

How would I know if what I'm buying has been
tested/approved/certificated etc?

Cheers

There are two possible ways, Ross.

As David says, the only manufacturers to offer crash-tested
systems at present are Ionic and Pure2o.  When a
crash-tested system is installed it is also given a crash-test
certificate issued by Thatcham (the crash testing centre)
which will say it complies with the FMVSS-208 Standard.  If
you buy a system that was manufactured and installed by
ionics or pure2o, the seller should provide you with that
certificate. (and you should ask to see it in advance).

Alternatively, the clamps which used by Ionic and pure2o to
secure the machine to the vehicle have "FMVSS-208"
stamped on them, and this is clearly visible.

HOWEVER, a simple and cost-effective way to avoid this
issue completely is to get a trailer system.  Trailers do
not present a crash danger at all, and if anyone is worried
about their system, it is not a big job to take it out and put it
in a trailer instead.  Trailers also have some advantages
over van systems.

-Philip

[garyj]

They are taking the mickey, for a start its not slander, when its written down its libel. Thats the first thing a 'City' solicitor would tell him. Anyway, what city??
Its complete rubbish.

The letter I got a few days ago about something I was selling on ebay, well errrrr   that WAS real