[Tom White]

Mod hat on:  I've had a complaint about some posts in this thread.  Please keep the debate reasonable; we can robustly argue points without resorting to abusing fellow forum members.  I'm not going to change any of the previous posts, but will lock it if it degenerates.  Maybe temp ban someone too.  Hector probably, even though he's not posted in this one.  I just don't like him.

[Perfect Windows]

The thing is with McDonalds is that they would have a territorial division. I don't know. It could perhaps be perceived as a way of avoiding employer's liability in this instance. I am seeking to understand, not to criticise I should add.

I understand your motives.  I do liek comments because it makes me reconsider if everything I think is covered is indeed covered.

I've had a couple of very long chats with both my accountant and with a VAT tax planning specialist to make sure that the businesses are distinct enough to be classed as separate.  It's all been very involved but has resulted in structures that mean the tax people will see them as separate businesses.

I'm not being economical with the truth by not giving details, it's just reams and reams of dull stuff that isn't really worth posting.

The end result is that with a properly written franchise agreement which gives the certainty that the franchisees are truly running their own businesses (albeit with the support of the Franchisor) then the problem of employment (or, worse, amalgamation of the turnover for VAT purposes) isn't going to come up.

Vin

[sham33]

Perfect Windows, do you put your prices on your flyers? Sorry if you have already mentioned this but cant see it in thread.

Thanks.

[Window Washers]

The thing is with McDonalds is that they would have a territorial division. I don't know. It could perhaps be perceived as a way of avoiding employer's liability in this instance. I am seeking to understand, not to criticise I should add.

I understand your motives.  I do liek comments because it makes me reconsider if everything I think is covered is indeed covered.

I've had a couple of very long chats with both my accountant and with a VAT tax planning specialist to make sure that the businesses are distinct enough to be classed as separate.  It's all been very involved but has resulted in structures that mean the tax people will see them as separate businesses.

I'm not being economical with the truth by not giving details, it's just reams and reams of dull stuff that isn't really worth posting.

The end result is that with a properly written franchise agreement which gives the certainty that the franchisees are truly running their own businesses (albeit with the support of the Franchisor) then the problem of employment (or, worse, amalgamation of the turnover for VAT purposes) isn't going to come up.

Vin

who owns the customers ?

[wightsurf]

is it possible to own customers?

[Window Washers]

is it possible to own customers?

ok re-word, own customer list 

[Ian Lancaster]

is it possible to own customers?

ok re-word, own customer list 

The Franchisor.  All detailed in the Franchise Agreement. 

[Window Washers]

is it possible to own customers?

ok re-word, own customer list 

The Franchisor.  All detailed in the Franchise Agreement. 

Ian, can you be a little more open on what your offer to people is ?

Please explain without going into detail to much how this is different (legal terms not needed) as your post is pointless, without shedding light on your answer.

not picking at you, im interested in this.

[Ian Lancaster]

is it possible to own customers?

ok re-word, own customer list 

The Franchisor.  All detailed in the Franchise Agreement. 

Ian, can you be a little more open on what your offer to people is ?

Please explain without going into detail to much how this is different (legal terms not needed) as your post is pointless, without shedding light on your answer.

not picking at you, im interested in this.

It's a Franchise.  It offers people the opportunity to own their own business under licence to me.  I take an initial fee and from that I provide to the Franchisee everything necessary except the van but including ongoing development of his customer base to run his own business and collect his fees for service to the customers in exchange for a percentage of his takings (the 'Royalty').

In the event of him terminating his Agreement (or having it terminated) his customer base reverts to me and I can appoint a new Franchisee to service it.

Think of any other Franchise you like: all the carpet cleaning Franchises, oven cleaning Franchises - they all operate the same way, the difference with ours is that we provide the customers, with all the others the Franchisee has to find his own customers but the customer base remains the property of the Franchisor

[Window Washers]

is it possible to own customers?

ok re-word, own customer list 

The Franchisor.  All detailed in the Franchise Agreement. 

Ian, can you be a little more open on what your offer to people is ?

Please explain without going into detail to much how this is different (legal terms not needed) as your post is pointless, without shedding light on your answer.

not picking at you, im interested in this.

It's a Franchise.  It offers people the opportunity to own their own business under licence to me.  I take an initial fee and from that I provide to the Franchisee everything necessary except the van but including ongoing development of his customer base to run his own business and collect his fees for service to the customers in exchange for a percentage of his takings (the 'Royalty').

In the event of him terminating his Agreement (or having it terminated) his customer base reverts to me and I can appoint a new Franchisee to service it.

Think of any other Franchise you like: all the carpet cleaning Franchises, oven cleaning Franchises - they all operate the same way, the difference with ours is that we provide the customers, with all the others the Franchisee has to find his own customers but the customer base remains the property of the Franchisor

and thats inforceable ? so what happens if said franchisee stops paying you and takes on there own customers in thier name, they are the face seen.
payments are they made to you or them ?

I can do this convo by phone at some point if you prefer, all my points are obsticles of my buying your agreement.

[Ian Lancaster]

Ian the whole essence of Franchising is the Agreement.  This is a legally binding agreement freely entered into by both parties and enforceable in law.

In practice if the Franchisee breached the Agreement you would have to take him to court and sue him for damages - it's a civil thing, not criminal.  The same thing applies to employment, although a lot of employment law comes under the criminal heading, things like breach of contract of employment are civil so if your employee breaches his agreement you would firstly sack him, then if he had caused you any damage (loss of income, defamation of character etc) you would sue him for damages.  Franchising has been around for a long time - franchise lawyers know exactly how to word an agreement to cover all the eventualities you can think of.

Can I suggest you compile a list of questions and e-mail them to me then I can deal with each one in turn.

Thanks,

Ian

[Dave Willis]

The hard work's been done by Ian lancaster, from what I've read - all the legalities have been gone through and his system obviously works. All his hard work can be purchased as a package to set your own franchise going.

Wish I'd had the brains to think of it 

[roundbuilder]

If the franchisee has a bit of ambition and drive then what is stopping them from going about it by thereself??
Its upto the home owner who cleans there windows is it not??? So weather the papers are signed or not if i worked for someone as a franchisee and felt that i wasnt getting as good of deal that was stated and decided i would go about it myself id hand the 6k buying in cost back and that be that. it would be easy for me after 2/3 years doing there windows to explain to all the customers that im not happy in the franchise and going to do it on my own without someone being in control of the houses and earning money from them no one actualy owns the right to decide who the customer wants to clean there windows.
Would it realy stand well in court for you if i did this?. Not that i would do this and hopefully no one will for you vin. Im just curious how it would work.
Cheers.

[Window Washers]

Ian the whole essence of Franchising is the Agreement.  This is a legally binding agreement freely entered into by both parties and enforceable in law.

In practice if the Franchisee breached the Agreement you would have to take him to court and sue him for damages - it's a civil thing, not criminal.  The same thing applies to employment, although a lot of employment law comes under the criminal heading, things like breach of contract of employment are civil so if your employee breaches his agreement you would firstly sack him, then if he had caused you any damage (loss of income, defamation of character etc) you would sue him for damages.  Franchising has been around for a long time - franchise lawyers know exactly how to word an agreement to cover all the eventualities you can think of.

Can I suggest you compile a list of questions and e-mail them to me then I can deal with each one in turn.

Thanks,

Ian

Cheers Ian will do when im bad in my office next week

[Perfect Windows]

Perfect Windows, do you put your prices on your flyers? Sorry if you have already mentioned this but cant see it in thread.

Thanks.

Yes I do.

Vin

[davids3511]

If the franchisee has a bit of ambition and drive then what is stopping them from going about it by thereself??
Its upto the home owner who cleans there windows is it not??? So weather the papers are signed or not if i worked for someone as a franchisee and felt that i wasnt getting as good of deal that was stated and decided i would go about it myself id hand the 6k buying in cost back and that be that. it would be easy for me after 2/3 years doing there windows to explain to all the customers that im not happy in the franchise and going to do it on my own without someone being in control of the houses and earning money from them no one actualy owns the right to decide who the customer wants to clean there windows.
Would it realy stand well in court for you if i did this?. Not that i would do this and hopefully no one will for you vin. Im just curious how it would work.
Cheers.

What's the point of a franchisee agreement if it didn't stand up? On a personal note, if someone did that to me I would do everything I could to ruin them. I would doorstep each customer, explain what had happened (ie how you ripped me off) tell them how important they are to my business and offer them 4 months free cleaning if they stayed with me. If I had to I would swallow the cost of having them cleaned for 4 months.

 I know I wouldn't get them all back but I would make a bloody big dent in what you though was your customer base. At the same time I would be going down every civil route possbile.

[roundbuilder]

If the franchisee has a bit of ambition and drive then what is stopping them from going about it by thereself??
Its upto the home owner who cleans there windows is it not??? So weather the papers are signed or not if i worked for someone as a franchisee and felt that i wasnt getting as good of deal that was stated and decided i would go about it myself id hand the 6k buying in cost back and that be that. it would be easy for me after 2/3 years doing there windows to explain to all the customers that im not happy in the franchise and going to do it on my own without someone being in control of the houses and earning money from them no one actualy owns the right to decide who the customer wants to clean there windows.
Would it realy stand well in court for you if i did this?. Not that i would do this and hopefully no one will for you vin. Im just curious how it would work.
Cheers.

What's the point of a franchisee agreement if it didn't stand up? On a personal note, if someone did that to me I would do everything I could to ruin them. I would doorstep each customer, explain what had happened (ie how you ripped me off) tell them how important they are to my business and offer them 4 months free cleaning if they stayed with me. If I had to I would swallow the cost of having them cleaned for 4 months.

 I know I wouldn't get them all back but I would make a bloody big dent in what you though was your customer base. At the same time I would be going down every civil route possbile.

Thats why i was asking. If the customer likes the window cleaner who has been doing them for 3 years and has already explained how the franchise worked to the customer and that they want to do them as there own with there permission then i cant see the franchisor havi g much joy gaining them back. Like i said i hope that wouldnt happen but it defo could.

[roundbuilder]

Flip side of thought. If you had a sexy redhead flirty woman who always had a good old chat with you who had been cleaning your windows for 3 years. She said to you that she has had enough of working for the franchise for whatever reason and asks if is ok to do them direct would you say no sorry the franchise owner who i havnt seen for 3 years has the rights to who cleans my windows or would you respect the girl setting up on her own and have her carry on doing them withought paying 20 percent to the franchise owner who only canvassed or leafleted that house for custom??.
That is how i believe that customers will see it if push came to shove.everyone likes a friendly/cheeky wc.
Customers are loyal to there reliable wc which is why i always chop and change things around with my rounds so no one gets to close to the action on a regular basis. With homeowners permission there is no stopping anyone doing there windows.

[dave0123]

Thats why i was asking. If the customer likes the window cleaner who has been doing them for 3 years and has already explained how the franchise worked to the customer and that they want to do them as there own with there permission then i cant see the franchisor havi g much joy gaining them back. Like i said i hope that wouldnt happen but it defo could.

so could staff though! even if you chop and change them around there not stupid they no what houses you do they could leave and go and nock on there door.

[roundbuilder]

Thats why i was asking. If the customer likes the window cleaner who has been doing them for 3 years and has already explained how the franchise worked to the customer and that they want to do them as there own with there permission then i cant see the franchisor havi g much joy gaining them back. Like i said i hope that wouldnt happen but it defo could.

so could staff though! even if you chop and change them around there not stupid they no what houses you do they could leave and go and nock on there door.

I agree anybody could do it if they wanted too if you let them in, part of the risk. Im not saying any franchisee's/emoyees are going to do this just if they do i cant see the contract being worth the paper its on. Only my opinion on the subject.